#jwrd Logs for Nov 2020

Filed under: #jwrd logs, Logs — Jacob Welsh @ 20:49
Day changed to 2020-11-02
[16:32] cruciform: jfw, thanks (and apologies for the late reply)!
[16:35] cruciform: I'm always very tempted to do as little work as possible when 'building on someone else's work' (the work's already done - I'll do just enough to pass it off as mine!)
[16:36] cruciform: (ftr, I'm speaking of my own laziness; not suggesting that's what you've done, here)
Day changed to 2020-11-03
[17:39] cruciform: disclosure: I've not finished Session 3's homework, yet - I'll have it completed and emailed by end of day
[17:54] jfw: alright
[18:03] cruciform: also, I'm 2 minutes late!
Day changed to 2020-11-05
[18:37] jfw: in local progress of cancers here in North Boston,
[18:42] jfw: the only somewhat surprising part to me is how strong is the skew toward socialism. 5 of the 6 referendum questions were put on the ballot by an unabashed "Democratic Socialists" group, for measures that had been defeated not that long ago
Day changed to 2020-11-10
[16:54] jfw: cruciform: we've posted homework #5; note that it references some newly added files on the training server. Just ask here if there's any trouble.
[17:32] cruciform: jfw: great, thanks
Day changed to 2020-11-12
[17:31] dorion: hey cruciform, how goes ? we'll be standing by at 18:00.
Day changed to 2020-11-15
[15:53] jfw: In unexpected discoveries of brokenness today: busybox 'shuf' misses a large portion of the permutation space. E.g., 'seq 2 | shuf' always produces 1, 2.
[16:01] jfw: looks like it's essentially excluding the 'unchanged' value for each choice. As in, never draws the Ace first or the two second or the three third, etc.
[16:03] jfw: so I typoed the 'seq 2 | shuf' result - it's always 2, 1.
Day changed to 2020-11-17
[18:14] dorion: cruciform, sent you the invite via email.
[18:16] dorion: so ftr, moving back today's scheduled session 6 to thursday, november 19th at 18:00 utc to allow cruciform to submit hw 4 and 5. session 7 is planned to return to the tuesday schedule nov 24th.
[18:20] dorion: cruciform, as you work through hws 4 and 5, feel free to ask questions here.
[18:22] dorion: cruciform, btw, did you ever read eric raymond's essay on [][smart questions] ?
[18:29] cruciform: got the email, thanks - I'll check out that essay
[18:29] jfw: as a side note, plz not to skimp on the http: prefix for links - it's the only reliable way for a text scanner to identify them
[18:29] cruciform: noted
[18:30] jfw: (consider all the new-fangled GTLDs - how's a poor machine to know that is a website? or even a human for that matter?)
[19:08] dorion: http:// -- noted jfw, there you go.
Day changed to 2020-11-18
[02:52] jfw: !s hi
[03:15] jfw: !s hi
[03:19] jfw:
[03:23] jfw: so basically nothing worked on the first try (so what else is new in this world?) but it's a start
[03:26] jfw: ah cool, one of the fails was just that I got the quit syntax wrong (needs the command prefix even in PM)
[03:30] jfw: !s hi
[03:33] jfw: !s hi
[03:40] jfw: awk is such a sloppy language, ugh. Many trivially-preventable typo bugs here - global vs. local variables and such.
[03:40] jfw: this is diana_coman's awklogbot prototype, hacked up a fair amount by me.
[03:41] jfw: !s hi
[03:44] jfw: !s hi
[03:50] jfw: !s hi
[03:50] sourcerer: Hello there, jfw
[03:50] jfw: now that's more like it!
[03:50] jfw:
[03:50] sourcerer: 2020-11-18 03:50:10 (#jwrd) sourcerer: Hello there, jfw
[03:50] jfw:
[03:50] sourcerer: 2020-11-18 03:50:15 (#jwrd) jfw: now that's more like it!
[03:55] jfw:
[03:55] jfw:
[03:55] sourcerer: 2020-11-18 03:54:50 (#fixpoint) jfw: testing...
[03:55] jfw: !s help
[03:55] sourcerer: !s is my prefix for commands: hi, help
[03:59] jfw: so that's pretty cool, the owner can have it !s join #newchannel on the fly and the new article is created in the db and everything, just without a specific category assigned for the channel as with statically configured ones
[04:05] jfw: .:: testing bracket notation ::.
[04:18] jfw: Function argument count mismatch was another pain in refactoring - awk DGAF and happily sets missing parameters to "", and in fact "it's a feature" i.e. the only way to do local variables.
[04:19] jfw:
[04:19] sourcerer: 2020-11-18 03:15:09 (#jwrd) jfw: !s hi
[05:52] jfw: !s hi
[05:52] sourcerer: Hello there, jfw
[05:55] jfw: Testing after change of line formatting tags.
[05:57] jfw: ...
[06:01] jfw: ...
[06:02] jfw pokes some more
[06:08] jfw hopes the testing hasn't been too noisy and might move it elsewhere if there's to be much more.
[06:19] jfw: but it's working nicely now and just about where I want it ; the main things I'd like to add before going live are scraping of external links for auto-archiving, and forward/backward threading links for the log articles. Then I'll need a script to back-fill my existing logs through the usual processing. Although, I suppose I could post-date them so that going live isn't dependent on finishing
[06:19] jfw: that.
[06:22] jfw: I'd also like to add search, but that's fine to do later on.
[06:24] jfw: <- sample of the rendered HTML.
[06:25] jfw: !s hi
[06:25] sourcerer: Hello there, jfw
[06:28] jfw: <- updated to show the bot chat; it's pretty nice I think as nested spans. Also since there aren't block elements (table cells, paragraphs) the famous MP-WP #select mechanism might work across multiple lines.
[06:29] jfw: ugh, probably not though because its span will get closed by the others, nvm.
[06:32] jfw: I guess as long as the bookends aren't inside a bot or action line.
[13:05] dorion: jfw, nice. not seeing the logs on your blog yet, am I overlooking or still in testing phase ?
[13:06] dorion: also, forwarded you an email from one of tonight's participants suggesting the use of jitsi instead of zoom.
[13:54] cruciform: jfw, dorion: I've a friend interested in watching the presentation tonight - does he need a separate invite (perhaps you could email it to me, if so)?
[14:53] dorion: cruciform, he can use the link and password provided to you.
[17:25] cruciform: cheers
[17:29] jfw: dorion: still testing, which is the meaning in the listing above of what's to be done before going live
[17:31] jfw: because I don't want to be hand-fiddling the html in previously published articles
[17:47] jfw: perhaps I'll dig out my last missive on the thing presently calling itself Jitsi, but in short: it's about as "alternative" to Zoom as Pepsi is to Coke, and tastes worse too. It's in the "we'll call it free and open source because we're too shallow to have considered the dependencies"
[17:47] jfw: * camp.
[17:50] jfw: which does seem to fit in with the thing the guy asking about it is on the board for: "OEMR is a non-profit organization formed to ensure that all people, regardless of race, socioeconomic status or geographic location, have access to high-quality medical care through the donation of free, open source medical software and service relating to that software."
[17:58] jfw: to make myself clearer: high-quality anything does not from "free code" or "open access to the best tools" or whatnot. There's entirely enough of that in the world already. It comes from competent *people* who can apply those tools effectively, and that's about the most scarce resource there is.
[17:58] jfw: *does not come from
[18:02] dorion: jfw, I scanned the jitsi website. first thing noticed was I didn't see a source download for desktop, only mobiles.
[18:03] jfw: probably on github somewhere.
[18:05] dorion: jfw, ah, i missed that line. sorry. how does the job of scraping links for auto-archiving compare to the script to back fill the history ?
[18:08] jfw: the first is pretty simple since it's already detecting links, just a matter of sticking them in a table.
[18:08] dorion: it seems to me like the history importing script is the easiest and most logical to do first. the auto-archiving and forward/backward links are nice to haves from my perspective. even if their easy, I'd prefer to have it public to return to habits such as log link quoting.
[18:09] dorion: they're
[18:11] jfw: I didn't mean fully implementing such archiving right now - just the intake side of a link queue in mysql basically. because I intend to do it eventually and so would rather not have to do the processing part twice
[18:13] jfw: let me ask this way: if we go live with log articles now and add a threading links feature later, it will only be in articles created after that point; would we then need to go back and update the old ones by hand or by some special-case code, for consistency?
[18:13] dorion: jfw, ok, I understand about the intake only part of the archiving.
[18:16] dorion: my question in response to the updating is, won't article that publishes this line need to be updating anyways each time in the future that anyone links it in channel ?
[18:16] dorion: won't the article*
[18:16] jfw: updating how?
[18:18] jfw: as in, what changes in a past line by its being referenced in the future? if you mean btcbase-style backlinks, that's handy but possibly done well enough already by wordpress trackbacks
[18:19] dorion: jfw, this line has 7 links to where it's referenced in future logs.
[18:21] dorion: jfw, oh, I suppose then I'm unclear what you mean by "forward/backward threading links for the log articles".
[18:22] jfw: backlinks indeed - so no, I don't think modifying old article content is a good way to implement that. btcbase can do it becase the pages are dynamically generated.
[18:23] jfw: by forward/backward I mean simply a link to the next and previous log article by date for the particular channel, so you can read in sequence without having to bounce back through the category.
[18:27] jfw: perhaps that's an unimportant luxury though, what do you think?
[18:30] jfw: we all have the experience of using the #ossasepia blog-based logs; this thing is going to work just the same except for what I change.
[18:33] dorion: oh I see, makes sense.
[18:34] dorion: to me, it's a nice to have. another option to navigate without going back to the category is to modify the url in the browser.
Day changed to 2020-11-19
[07:05] jfw: ... ...
[07:06] jfw:
[07:06] sourcerer: 2020-11-19 07:05:40 (#jwrd) jfw: ... ...
[07:07] jfw: well, link extraction for later archival is working except that it redundantly processes its own citations, heh.
[07:15] jfw:
[07:15] jfw:
[07:15] sourcerer: 2020-11-19 07:05:40 (#jwrd) jfw: ... ...
[07:16] jfw: and fixed.
[07:22] jfw: this is all pretty exciting I must say! maybe it even turns out I have something to say using all this shmancy realtime hypertext technology.
[07:31] jfw: I'm leaning toward skipping those threading links; for one thing, with monthly articles it's not going to be a big deal and for another, derivation of the "permalink" (in wordpress terminology) is potentially troublesome even given the article name/slug
[07:34] jfw: I will publish my changes to the logbot as V patches, so if the lack of such links bothers anyone... let him send in the patch!
[12:52] dorion: jfw, cool, sounds good.
[17:17] dorion: hey cruciform, how goes ?
[17:17] dorion: thanks for joining last night's call.
[17:19] dorion: what's your status for training today ? we have yet to receive hw 4 and 5.
[17:21] cruciform: just finishing up hw 5; done hw 4
[17:21] cruciform: on for 18:00 session today
[17:22] cruciform: brb
[17:23] dorion: thanks, sounds good.
Day changed to 2020-11-20
[14:23] dorion: hey cruciform, how goes ? as of ~6:00 UTC we had not received homeworks 4 and 5. Did you forget to submit them or what's the status ?
[14:32] dorion: regarding sharing the material with your friend, first thanks for asking. we understand that there's not a whole lot we can do to prevent you from doing so, but think his request presents an opportunity.
[14:37] dorion: from what you've shared, it seems like he's in a pattern of consuming material without much interaction. we see the core value of our service being the training sessions and office hours in which clients have accountability and guidance, which save time in acheiving their goals. there are already a number of free options for learning Unix and the specific applications we teach in later modules are
[14:37] dorion: all publicly documented to some degree.
[14:38] dorion: part of the long term value to you is the degree to which you can use the tools like gpg and btc with people you trust, so if he gets up to speed that helps you.
[14:41] dorion: if he does become a client, we'd pay you a 10% referral fee, giving you further incentive to persuade him to become our client.
[14:43] dorion: I'll leave it to your discretion, but I propose you ask him to join #jwrd and have a conversation with us about his interest in becoming a client before you share the written materials with him. that at least raises the likelihood of disrupting his pattern of consuming w/o interaction.
[14:44] dorion: perhaps you also suggest he registers a key and you'll encrypt the files to his key to share.
[14:46] dorion: cruciform, how does that strategy sound to you ?
[17:23] cruciform: dorion, while the homework is "done", it's not completed to a level I'm happy with - I'm going over it; will have it emailed by 00:00 UTC today
[17:24] cruciform: the above makes sense wrt my friend - as always, getting him to come out of hiding is the issue...
[17:44] dorion: ok cruciform, thanks for the update. feel free to raise questions in here too.
[17:45] dorion: understood re your friend.
[18:25] dorion: jfw, I have updates to my own about/contact page to make, but while it's on my mind, adding #jwrd to yours makes sense to me.
[21:34] jfw: dorion: thanks for noting; ftr I do have #fixpoint listed as an IRC contact point, where I'm indeed still tuned in, but with the focus now on #jwrd I don't quite see a need to keep that open.
[21:40] jfw: seems like there's some other gardening work in order though, like adding some basic bio / history, linking, removing from the active 'blogroll'
[21:41] jfw: and pointers to getting started with my software as diana_coman noted a while back.
[22:27] cruciform: dorion, jfw: Homework 5, Q15; I can't see a file called "sums" in the UNXClass directory?
[22:44] jfw: cruciform: I see a file "sum" (on the training server) with the expected contents, try that instead.
[22:47] cruciform: jfw, works - though only checks the one sum contained in the file "sum"; the wording of the question implies there's a missing file, "sums" containing sums for every file in UNXClass?
[22:51] jfw: I could see that interpretation, or at the very least more than one. You can leave it as just the one for this assignment.
[22:51] jfw: dorion: what's going on here, did we clobber a "sums" file that in fact existed or what?
[22:51] cruciform: cool, no worries - I created a file with all the sums, and verified 'em
[22:52] jfw: cruciform: sounds good, sorry about the confusion.
[22:53] cruciform: np
[22:54] cruciform: I've been trying to dissuade a friend as to Tether FUD - he thinks the BTC price is entirely fabricated from unbacked printing
[22:57] jfw: sounds like he's listening to a thief who cries "thief!"
[22:57] jfw: I wonder what he means by "backed" though
[22:58] cruciform: he means the Tethers aren't backed by USD (they're running a fractional reserve)
[22:58] cruciform: not sure what you mean by the thief comment?
[22:59] jfw: erm, you said BTC price, so I took it that he meant printing of BTC so not seeing where tether enters into it
[23:00] cruciform: aha, I see the confusion - I mean he thinks unbacked-Tether printing is inflating the BTC price
[23:00] jfw: I have heard also that tether is a fractional reserve and indeed would be more surprised if it weren't.
[23:00] cruciform: I agree
[23:01] cruciform: I suggested that OTC trades determine the BTC price; not exchanges
[23:03] jfw: could be, then; there aren't all that reliable price signals there (but are there anywhere these days?)
[23:03] cruciform: seems likely to me that exchanges are wash-traded, with thin order books
[23:04] cruciform: precisely - there isn't a free market in anything, really (expect BTC mining), with all the central bank printing
[23:05] jfw: There was an argument that much of the 2013 rally was fraudulent trading by infinitely-funded bots on mtgox; and that's quite possible but things like that do run their course soon enough.
[23:05] jfw: anyway, I'm off for now.
[23:05] cruciform: yes - seems that'd get harder as the market cap increases
[23:05] cruciform: ttyl
[23:15] cruciform: jfw, homeworks for sessions 4&5 sent; apologies for tardiness
Day changed to 2020-11-21
[03:14] jfw: got them cruciform, thanks.
[03:18] jfw: re the BTC/fiat price action - BTCUSD testing the all-time high - I will point out that while there's no "right answer" to "do I buy or sell or hold??", it is quite likely a good time to be re-evaluating the situation and re-balancing so that you'll be satisfied with your situation no matter the outcome.
[03:26] jfw: is the long-term chart, such as it is; purely based on this it's quite possible either that we pull back to $5k or never again see below $50k. I know in 2018 I was kicking myself for not having hustled more to sell during the December frenzy.
[03:27] cruciform: jfw: not a bad time to pay for modules 2+3, either! ;)
[03:27] jfw: could be!
[03:28] cruciform: I feel you regarding the lack-of-hustle; I have similar regrets from the 2017 bull run
[03:28] cruciform: I'll let my OTC buyers know I'm looking to sell
[03:30] jfw: My personal guess at a narrative would be simply: second wave of the pandemic is leading to second wave of lockdowns, which will assuredly lead to second wave of stimulus / easing / fiat-printing, such that Tether's attempts will look amateurish by comparison.
[03:30] jfw: otoh, bitcoin hasn't been known to correlate much with mainstream news.
[03:30] cruciform: that is my view, too
[03:34] cruciform: I'm not one for timing the market, but do want to divest
[03:35] cruciform: amusingly, my tether-worried friend is heavily invested in TSLA - coz that's not propped up by printolade, at all!
[03:37] jfw: right?
Day changed to 2020-11-22
[19:56] jfw: hello abrelosojos
[19:56] cruciform: jfw: abrelosojos is my friend who listened to the talk you guys gave
[19:57] jfw: ah cool.
[20:17] jfw: abrelosojos, have you used IRC or GPG before?
[20:18] abrelosojos: yeah I have used them before
[20:18] abrelosojos: thanks for your time on that talk on zoom the other day
[20:19] jfw: our pleasure, hope it was informative.
[20:25] jfw: Do you have a GPG key you can link here? That way you can establish a long-term identity & secure communications when necessary without Freenode as a dubious intermediary
[20:25] jfw: is good for pasting such things
[20:30] jfw: registering with deedbot - which associates an irc name and Web of Trust ratings with the key - has traditionally been a part of that rite of passage. dorion & I haven't quite decided whether to keep using it, and for instance haven't contracted for the bot's services here, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to at least register if you like the nick.
[20:38] abrelosojos: yeah sure - I was planning to register my key
[20:53] jfw: And we are live!
[20:54] jfw: logs look a bit plain presently but just needs some css tweaks.
[21:18] dorion: jfw, nice. looks good in links.
[21:23] dorion: -- nice, thanks for the intro.
[21:23] sourcerer: 2020-11-22 19:56:44 (#jwrd) cruciform: jfw: abrelosojos is my friend who listened to the talk you guys gave
[21:25] dorion: bienvenido abrelosojos.
[21:27] dorion: -- how does he explain BTC price action before tether ? or bitfinex ?
[21:27] sourcerer: 2020-11-20 22:54:25 (#jwrd) cruciform: I've been trying to dissuade a friend as to Tether FUD - he thinks the BTC price is entirely fabricated from unbacked printing
[21:29] dorion: what's supported more by unbacked printing, us treasury bond prices or the btc ? hmm ? lol.
[21:31] jfw: got that css done, e.g. bots and actions are nicely distinguished now, and verily multi-line selection works even across all sorts of intervening elements
[21:31] cruciform: yes indeed; on pointing out the Fed-induced stock market bubble, got a lulzy response of "it's legal when the USG does it!"
[21:34] dorion: jfw, sweet.
[21:36] dorion: cruciform, "legal" is determined by who makes the rules. the rule for a while was, "whoever has the gold, makes the rules". gold hasn't done a very good job keeping up with btc purchasing power though.
[21:39] dorion: -- thanks for joining. were there any points you think we could improve and clarify ?
[21:39] sourcerer: 2020-11-22 20:18:59 (#jwrd) abrelosojos: thanks for your time on that talk on zoom the other day
[21:41] jfw: re "legal when the mob does it" - it's not necessarily so ;
[21:46] dorion: jfw, good reference.
[21:49] billymg: hey dorion, jfw
[21:50] billymg: your new logs ( ) just popped up in alf's channel. i had a chance to skim/read through them and figured i'd join and lurk for a while if that's alright
[21:51] jfw: welcome billymg, glad to have you
[21:53] dorion: hey billymg, welcome. how's costa rica ?
[21:54] billymg: jfw: ty, likewise glad to see jwrd still going strong in the sane bitcoin storage solution space
[21:56] billymg: dorion: it's good, can't complain too much i suppose. the complaints i have wouldn't go away in any other country that i'm aware of (speaking of the global shift to... not even sure what to call it)
[21:57] billymg: i've been mostly splitting my time between spanish practice, some light fiat gig hours, and working on property renovations with a contractor
[21:58] dorion: billymg, nice, sounds constructive.
[21:58] billymg: just recently acquired a second place, as a rental (for btc no less), for the exclusive reason that it has fiber internet and my neighborhood still does not
[21:59] dorion: billymg, sounds advantageous on multiple fronts.
[21:59] billymg: dorion: haha, it's at a very relaxed pace i can assure you
[21:59] cruciform: billymg, you're paying rent in BTC? How'd you manage that?
[22:00] jfw: sadly I'm still fiberless myself; one thing at a time though.
[22:01] billymg: cruciform: dumb luck tbh, the landlord is contact through a friend and he just happened to want some btc
[22:01] billymg: jfw: in rural mass?
[22:01] dorion: billymg, how did the "shift" shift your plans with the bed and breakfast ? has international tourism picked itself off the floor at all ?
[22:02] jfw: I'm in urban Maine presently (though was in coastal village Maine for a couple months)
[22:02] billymg: dorion: oh it completely killed it in the short term, we had three 1-2 week long tour groups scheduled to rent the entire place during the months of may - july that were all forced to cancel
[22:03] dorion: billymg, yeah, that's rough. panama's boarder was pretty tight into sept.
[22:03] billymg: jfw: ah, so that's what was meant by North Boston?
[22:04] jfw: ayep.
[22:05] dorion: lol.
[22:05] billymg: jfw: gotcha haha
[22:05] jfw: (and I suppose I finally need to fix the damn theme to not show full articles under the categories/archive lists.)
[22:06] billymg: dorion: yeah, it's unfortunate. and i don't even mind the lack of business as much as the general annoyance of ~everything these days
[22:12] dorion: billymg, they've increased restrictions here in recent weeks. bars had been open pretty much the whole time but they just shut'em down prior to the thanksgiving migration.
[22:13] jfw: billymg: say, would you have any pointers re before I set off into the mpwp labyrinths? I'm using a lightly modified 'classic' theme
[22:13] sourcerer: 2020-11-22 22:05:51 (#jwrd) jfw: (and I suppose I finally need to fix the damn theme to not show full articles under the categories/archive lists.)
[22:14] dorion: no more outdoor dining either given it's not warm enough to keep the leaves on the trees.
[22:15] jfw: Nobody in Portland minds the new restrictions here because everyone's too old to be up past 9pm anyway. I read it in the paper!
[22:16] dorion: -- do you want to sign an addendum and settle the payment this week ?
[22:16] sourcerer: 2020-11-21 03:27:01 (#jwrd) cruciform: jfw: not a bad time to pay for modules 2+3, either! ;)
[22:16] billymg: dorion: sad to hear, gotta keep the demoralization campaign going i suppose. everything seems to be open again here, just with earlier closing times, capacity limits, mask rules in shops, etc. etc.
[22:18] billymg: jfw: one sec, i think this is the thing i helped diana_coman with earlier this year. lemme look back and see if i can find the discussion and/or fix...
[22:19] dorion: billymg, yeah, it's a mental virus more than anything imo.
[22:19] billymg: dorion: absolutely. i think mp mentioned it somewhere that if people were still people they would've simply said "fuck you" to all the new rules and nothing would've happened
[22:20] jfw: I was rereading in search of some stronger footing re my own position
[22:20] dorion: I enjoy being outside it winter, took a lot of practice, but the cold can be refreshing if you know how to embrace it.
[22:21] jfw: One point I didn't see addressed there, and wonder if any here can help out, was the "flattening the curve" argument - that restrictions can't reduce the overall case count but can reduce the intensity so as not to overwhelm those fragile socialist supply chains (though I suppose that last part is where it's addressed indirectly)
[22:24] jfw bbl, dinner.
[22:28] cruciform: -- sounds good; mind itemising the invoice for me?
[22:28] sourcerer: 2020-11-22 22:16:17 (#jwrd) dorion: -- do you want to sign an addendum and settle the payment this week ?
[22:29] billymg: jfw: ah, no, she was trying to adjust pagination in a way that would only affect the archive list
[22:32] billymg: jfw: there is a "setting" in mp-wp admin (Settings > Reading > For each article in a feed, show: Full Text | Summary) that i thought would do the trick but tried on my blog and did nothing
[22:35] billymg: jfw: my guess would be to look into that though. i'm thinking there should be a hook somewhere at the theme level that checks this setting and displays articles on list pages accordingly
[22:36] billymg bbl
[22:42] dorion: good to catch up billymg, laters.
Day changed to 2020-11-23
[00:48] jfw: billymg: thanks for that and the ref, and amazingly enough the [+if ( get_option('posts_per_archive_page') && ($this->is_archive) ) {pasted snippet still loads.
[00:48] jfw: +$q['posts_per_page'] = get_option('posts_per_archive_page');
[00:48] jfw: gah!
[00:49] jfw: * the pasted snippet still loads
[00:49] jfw: (and is now even archived inline, lolz)
[00:53] jfw: but as a side note, I'm still friends with diana_coman, who is still very much alive, so let's kindly link to her stuff when linking to her stuff.
[01:01] dorion: jfw, cheers to that.
[03:14] cruciform: - jfw, dorion, Module 2: $4000 + Module 3: $3200 + Hardware Package: $2500 - Retroactive 10% Discount: $1080 - Cost of FG (which I already own): $500 = $8120. Does that sound right?
[03:14] sourcerer: 2020-11-22 22:28:35 (#jwrd) cruciform: -- sounds good; mind itemising the invoice for me?
[14:53] dorion: cruciform, you will have the invoice today. $8120 looks correct, but does not factor shippping. we've delivered hardware to all other clients in person.
[14:56] dorion: cruciform, another question is if you want two laptops or a laptop and a desktop.
[16:36] billymg: << ack, no problem. i use ascii's because it has the best search functionality currently, but after after a lengthy discussion i do understand the "why" behind logs in mp-wp
[16:36] sourcerer: 2020-11-23 00:53:40 (#jwrd) jfw: but as a side note, I'm still friends with diana_coman, who is still very much alive, so let's kindly link to her stuff when linking to her stuff.
[20:21] jfw: re desktop, not sure if I mentioned explicitly so: we don't presently have a known-working, new-parts coreboot desktop to offer, though dorion's efforts in that direction have been promising.
[20:23] jfw: thus if you're interested in that, cruciform, what might make sense is to go with one laptop for starters and tackle desktops a bit later
[20:25] jfw: billymg: I hear you re log search; I do intend to implement it here, and the database is set up fine for it, though might not get around to it for a while yet.
[21:27] cruciform: -- jfw, dorion I'll have to think about that. It may take me a couple of weeks to settle the payment. Do you want to lock-in the BTC price at today's rate, until - say - Dec 7th?
[21:27] sourcerer: 2020-11-23 20:23:32 (#jwrd) jfw: thus if you're interested in that, cruciform, what might make sense is to go with one laptop for starters and tackle desktops a bit later
Day changed to 2020-11-24
[03:34] dorion: cruciform, alright, think about it. could go with the laptops right now and then make a decision about a desktop at a later date. as jfw clarified, the desktop option is still under development.
[03:37] dorion: cruciform, a two week option at ~all time high is hard a bargain, what percentage could you put down as a down payment this week ?
[03:39] dorion: we have one thinkpad in stock and will order the other this week. that should give sufficient window to get them set up and shipped off to you by the time you're ready to start module 2.
[03:45] dorion: crucifrom, worth mentioning too that the desktop quite large and heavy compared to the laptops and shipping will be more expensive for the former.
[17:31] cruciform: -- about 0.36BTC worth
[17:31] sourcerer: 2020-11-24 03:37:04 (#jwrd) dorion: cruciform, a two week option at ~all time high is hard a bargain, what percentage could you put down as a down payment this week ?
[19:53] jfw: cruciform: btw the system administration topics will take up the remaining 'beginner' sessions though it's not clear yet whether it'll fit in 8 or need all 9. If it fits in 8, I could prepare something on a topic of your choice for #9.
[19:55] jfw: For instance, I recall you were interested in running your own blog; for that, some basic php or mysql literacy will be helpful
[19:58] dorion: cruciform, that'll suffice to lock in the price.
[20:05] jfw: lock in like a vice, what'd be gone in a trice, without asking twice, like sugar and spice
Day changed to 2020-11-25
[22:17] jfw: cruciform: to confirm & get down for the log the status of things from Tuesday, we received homeworks 4 and 5 late so they will be returned by next Tuesday; homework 6 is due from you at that time; homework 7 will be assigned also at that time - this was my bad for not getting caught up on writing those last week. There was also reading assigned last week that I didn't check on, so proceed with
[22:17] jfw: that if not done yet as well as the 'less' & 'tmux' review that we found was necessary.
[22:17] jfw: dorion & I are working on getting a proposed contract out ASAP for the next modules and hardware.
[22:23] dorion: cruciform, I sent you some pms to sync up on shipping.
[23:29] cruciform: jfw, dorion - sounds good, thanks
Day changed to 2020-11-26
[14:10] dorion: welcome whitehorn, who might you be ?
[14:11] dorion: cruciform, are you ok with US layout keyboards for the thinkpads ? or do you want UK keyboards ?
[14:15] whitehorn: hi dorion, Steve here
[14:17] dorion: whitehorn, nice ! happy thanksgiving.
[14:17] whitehorn: happy thanksgiving!
[14:17] whitehorn: nice day out there, very mild
[14:19] whitehorn: building my install script, hit a snag
[14:19] dorion: jfw, want to put the #jwrd logs link in the topic.
[14:20] whitehorn: in the BUILD doc, 3.4
[14:21] dorion pulls up BUILD file
[14:21] whitehorn: goes to cross compile but the configure script barks
[14:21] whitehorn: checking for C compiler...
[14:21] whitehorn: ./configure: cannot find a C compiler
[14:22] whitehorn: looks like it was built as xgcc
[14:22] whitehorn: /var/build/gales/build/build-gcc/gcc/xgcc
[14:27] dorion: whitehorn, hmm, first time I've seen that error.
[14:31] dorion: let's gather some info to help jfw when he checks the log. what host are you building on ?
[14:32] dorion: I have a couple gales installs running, but I don't currently have a build environment to immediatly cross reference.
[14:34] whitehorn: ok, thank you, Linux 5.4.0-54-generic #60-Ubuntu SMP Fri Nov 6 10:37:59 UTC 2020 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
[14:41] dorion: whitehorn, what's the result of `echo $TOOLS $ROOT` ? from Section 1. of BUILD, "tools -- where the cross toolchain and any other build-time utilities are installed."
[14:51] whitehorn: checking for C compiler...
[14:51] whitehorn: ./configure: cannot find a C compiler
[14:51] whitehorn: make: Nothing to be done for 'install'.
[14:51] whitehorn: bash-5.0$ echo $TOOLS $ROOT
[14:51] whitehorn: /var/build/gales/tools /var/build/gales/root
[14:54] whitehorn: thanks for pointing that out though, looks like my script hadn't set them
[14:54] whitehorn: now i see the gcc under /var/build/gales/tools/bin
[14:55] whitehorn: x86_64-gales-linux-musl-gcc
[14:56] dorion: did you set all the environment variables in Section 1 ?
[14:57] dorion: $S and $GALES_REPO have to be modified from the BUILD doc.
[14:57] whitehorn: yep, just manually entered them on the bash line with export
[14:57] whitehorn: export S=/home/steve/src/gales
[14:58] whitehorn: export GALES_REPO=/home/steve/Downloads/gales-linux-20191201
[14:59] whitehorn: think i see something typed incorrectly, thanks
[15:00] dorion: not having those likely fouled up prior steps.
[15:03] whitehorn: :-D
[15:05] dorion: the BUILD doc is designed to facilitate copy and pasting of the steps. diana_coman reported making a script out of the BUILD doc, though she also read the files a few times prior to scripting it.
[15:07] dorion: copy pasta without reading can obviously still cause problems/indigestion.
[15:30] whitehorn: reading != understanding
[15:37] whitehorn: still failing there
[15:37] whitehorn: (build) steve@steve-MS-7B23:/var/build/gales/build/musl-1.1.21$ ./configure --build=$BUILD --host=$TGT --prefix= --disable-shared --enable-warnings CFLAGS=-O1
[15:37] whitehorn: checking for C compiler...
[15:37] whitehorn: ./configure: cannot find a C compiler
[15:37] whitehorn: (build) steve@steve-MS-7B23:/var/build/gales/build/musl-1.1.21$ echo $BUILD
[15:37] whitehorn: x86_64-ubuntu-linux-gnu
[15:37] whitehorn: (build) steve@steve-MS-7B23:/var/build/gales/build/musl-1.1.21$ echo $TGT
[15:37] whitehorn: x86_64-gales-linux-musl
[15:38] whitehorn: that CFLAGS = -O1 :)
[15:47] dorion: hmm, did you start from stratch or tweak and try to resume prior run ?
[15:50] dorion: what does `echo $PATH` yield ?
[15:51] whitehorn: from scratch, now looking into configure script in musl dir
[15:51] dorion: should've been set in Section 1, specifically: `env -i TERM=$TERM HOME=$HOME LC_ALL=C PATH=$PWD/tools/bin:$PATH PS1="(build) $PS1" bash --norc`
[16:00] whitehorn: ok, thanks
[16:13] dorion: -- I went through a fresh gales build, just made it through Section 3.4. and was unable to produce the error about no C compiler.
[16:13] sourcerer: 2020-11-26 14:32:55 (#jwrd) dorion: I have a couple gales installs running, but I don't currently have a build environment to immediatly cross reference.
[16:24] whitehorn: made it to 3.5 :)
[16:26] whitehorn: error from line 204 of BUILD
[16:26] whitehorn: make[2]: Leaving directory '/var/build/gales/build/build-gcc/gcc'
[16:26] whitehorn: make[1]: *** [Makefile:3491: all-gcc] Error 2
[16:26] whitehorn: make[1]: Leaving directory '/var/build/gales/build/build-gcc'
[16:26] whitehorn: make: *** [Makefile:857: all] Error 2
[16:29] dorion: whitehorn, is a service we use for sharing pastes of text. would you mind sharing as much of the output as possible through that service. paste it into the box there, submit it and it will return a link you can share here.
[16:33] whitehorn: ok, nice
[16:33] whitehorn:
[16:33] dorion: ty
[16:34] dorion: hmm, doesn't differ from what you posted in the channel. can you include say the prior 50 lines as well, I'm guessing there's more context.
[16:34] dorion: as well ?*
[16:42] whitehorn:
[16:42] whitehorn: looks like there's a problem in the Makefile with the PWD_COMMAND
[17:16] whitehorn: will prepend CFLAGS like on line 176
[17:16] whitehorn:
[17:20] whitehorn: dang, no luck, time for lunch :)
[17:24] dorion: gobble
[18:07] jfw: - done, thx for the suggestion.
[18:07] jfw: rather.
[18:07] sourcerer: 2020-11-26 14:19:26 (#jwrd) dorion: jfw, want to put the #jwrd logs link in the topic.
[18:19] jfw: welcome whitehorn & great to see you're making headway.
[18:19] jfw: I take it you've been doing software long enough to have some idea how ..."interesting" things can get even with the "known-working process"
[18:22] jfw: in theory, the Gales bootstrap is meant to work from any "reasonably Unixy" initial host system; in practice I'm not sure it's been tried from Ubuntu yet. Do you know what version you're on? (if not, "cat /etc/debian_version" iirc)
[18:31] jfw: - this can be probed manually by "$BUILD-gcc -v" ; if that gives command not found, something's wrong with the TOOLS path or similar as seen here, or earlier steps failed.
[18:31] sourcerer: 2020-11-26 15:37:20 (#jwrd) whitehorn: ./configure: cannot find a C compiler
[18:37] jfw: ah sorry, $TGT-gcc not $BUILD-gcc above; $TGT is the prefix for the cross toolchain. - this showed only compiler warnings which aren't that interesting; a full build log would be helpful i.e. "make 2>&1 | tee gales-step-3.5-make.log"
[18:37] sourcerer: 2020-11-26 16:42:25 (#jwrd) whitehorn:
[18:40] jfw off to butter up the cranberry sauce then indulge.
[18:42] dorion butters bread, not cranberry sauce.
[21:22] jfw: dorion: suit yourself, but the sauce was a winner - notwithstanding that ourdemocracy was unable to supply vanilla bean and it had to be substituted with extract.
[22:48] cruciform: happy thanksgiving
[22:48] cruciform: -- I prefer US-layout, thanks
[22:48] sourcerer: 2020-11-26 14:11:38 (#jwrd) dorion: cruciform, are you ok with US layout keyboards for the thinkpads ? or do you want UK keyboards ?
[22:49] dorion: cruciform, aok.
[23:10] cruciform: looks like my friend's got his key uploaded
[23:11] cruciform: can't rate him, yet - seems deedbot needs time to update
Day changed to 2020-11-27
[02:16] jfw: deedbot sometimes works in mysterious ways.
[02:18] jfw: but this seems a good juncture to decide on the question of whether to use it (or its equivalent). to my knowledge the latest in the public discussion of the topic is
[02:23] jfw: certainly those who see benefit in making their ratings public can do so, now as ever; but I'm not seeing that anyone has made that case for going through the trouble of maintaining a public and shared representation of part of the WoT. I'm not prepared to make such a case myself.
[02:28] jfw: undoubtedly there are nice things that are possible when you have it, but there is a cost to maintaining it, of which the above sort of "what's the matter with the bot this time" but scratches the surface; and the Republic of powerful Men with the authority to push it and a Forum in which to work out wtf in case of dispute, does not exist
[02:36] jfw: I will wait a bit & listen if anyone has that case to make.
[12:58] whitehorn: good morning, thank you for the support yesterday dorion
[12:59] whitehorn: am running ubuntu 20 or bullseye/sid in debian speak
[13:36] whitehorn: thanks for the suggestions as well as requesting the log jfw
[13:42] whitehorn: it's almost like 8M, how should I deliver?
[13:43] whitehorn:
[13:43] whitehorn: hmm, think we are not cross compiling?
[14:00] whitehorn: oh, that's the ubuntu gcc
[14:00] whitehorn: anyways, can send the config.log too
[14:42] dorion: good morning whitehorn, my pleasure. I think deedbot paste can eat 8M of text. If you try and it barfs an error, do you have webserver where you can make it available ?
[14:56] whitehorn:
[14:58] whitehorn: payload was too large for deedbot
[14:59] whitehorn: looks like gist is truncated so will put up 2nd part
[14:59] dorion: cruciform, for the thinkpads, the power supply units we have in stock have US plugs. the units are modular in that you can seemlessly install UK plugs into the power brick. we're thinking it makes more sense for us to ship you the bricks with US plugs and for you to acquire the UK plugs on your own rather than having them shipped twice across the atlantic. is that acceptable to you ?
[15:10] dorion: thanks whitehorn.
[15:59] whitehorn: good call on the website soln,
[16:24] dorion: ty whitehorn. are you bootstrapping on gcc 5 ?
[16:28] dorion: whitehorn, the gnu_inline error looks to be the same as bvt reported when attempting to build on debian 9 with gcc 5. archived patch that bvt linked to.
[16:41] whitehorn: ok, nice, thank you
[18:43] whitehorn: maybe a typo on line 149 of BUILD
[18:43] whitehorn: ln -s ../../binutils-2.24/include/xregex.h include/
[18:43] whitehorn: should be
[18:43] whitehorn: ln -s ../binutils-2.24/include/xregex.h include/
[18:44] jfw: good link dorion, I've added a trackback to my release article. There is a possibly easier and stronger but untested fix based on the explanations in the patch: adding "-std=gnu89" to CFLAGS for that step 3.5 configure (though not "-std=c89" as I wrote there at the time)
[18:45] jfw: I see there was also "makeinfo" trouble there. I guess the upshot is we haven't yet worked out the issues with doing this from those "new and improved" systems so there's likely to be more trouble on this path, ouch.
[18:46] whitehorn: do you have a suggestion for a machine to build with?
[18:46] whitehorn: it doesn't have to be on this ubuntu work comp
[18:47] jfw: it's looking like 2015ish distros or older are the best bet, based on gcc versions.
[18:48] whitehorn: ok, thank you
[18:48] jfw: Gentoo is what I used, though it's a moving target.
[18:48] jfw: taking a look at the ln -s thing...
[18:49] jfw: ah, not a typo: the link is going in the "include/" subdir, the extra .. is because it needs to be relative to that subdir.
[18:50] jfw: equivalently, "cd include; ln -s ../../binutils-2.24/include/xregex.h .; cd .." if that makes more sense (and it'll tab-complete)
[18:50] dorion: jfw, did you also build gales on openbsd ?
[18:51] jfw: parts of it at least - actually yes I think I got it all working but getting nondeterministic output which had been the main point of the exercise
[18:53] jfw: as in, the cross compiler provided by the same gcc version producing different binary output on the two platforms in rare cases
[18:54] dorion: whitehorn, spyked bootstrapped from Debian.
[18:56] dorion: jfw, I recall you getting through the build on obsd.
[18:57] jfw: and that was openbsd 5.8 / amd64.
[18:58] jfw: seems to be my old hangup, "made significant progress but didn't get it 100% perfect so didn't write it up"
[18:59] dorion: whitehorn, I don't think anyone has tested all the way on a gcc version higher than 4.9.4. bvt started, but then switched to cuntoo, which uses gcc-4.9.4.
[19:00] dorion: jfw, you probably have good notes, but did it at least 12 months before you had fixpoint.
[19:00] jfw: that too.
[19:03] whitehorn: ok, thank you dorion and jfw
[19:03] jfw: I say 2015 based on gcc versions; the idea is to be 4.9.x or older.
[19:05] jfw: it's not the only thing that could break of course, but the other things like 'makeinfo' will also be of the same generation.
[19:05] dorion: you're welcome whitehorn, let us know how it goes !
[19:05] jfw: and yw!
[19:07] whitehorn: with that patch to the cfns am thru 3.5
[19:09] dorion: sweet.
Day changed to 2020-11-28
[08:43] cruciform: -- yes, that's fine
[08:43] sourcerer: 2020-11-27 14:59:55 (#jwrd) dorion: cruciform, for the thinkpads, the power supply units we have in stock have US plugs. the units are modular in that you can seemlessly install UK plugs into the power brick. we're thinking it makes more sense for us to ship you the bricks with US plugs and for you to acquire the UK plugs on your own rather than having them shipped twice across the atlantic. is that acceptable to you ?
[23:20] dorion: -- cruciform, here's the draft of the addendum for the hardware and training modules 2 & 3.
Day changed to 2020-11-29
[04:38] jfw: MP on the shockingly!! stolen US election
Day changed to 2020-11-30
[05:11] jfw: cruciform: how goes with the proposed contract, do you need more time to review? I'm mostly leaving this to dorion but wanted to point out that we're aware we didn't leave you much time to act on that verbal price lock and there might be some leniency possible as a result.
[05:15] cruciform: jfw, I was a tad under the weather yesterday; I'll read it and get back to you in a couple of hours
[05:19] jfw: perhaps better to get some sleep then? I'll go ahead and extend the downpayment deadline to Tuesday (Dec 1, 12 UTC) as I won't be able to gpg-sign before the present one as things stand.
[05:37] jfw: today's bot update was adding html escaping for ((mp-wp)) [[metacharacters]] and pulling bot and blog specifics out into a config file so the script itself can now be redeployed directly from a V press.
[12:49] cruciform: jfw, dorion - the contract looks fine to me. I've derped with regard to how much BTC I have to hand; I won't be able to make any payment until Dec 6th (I can pay in full then). How do you want to handle the exchange rate?
[14:25] dorion: cruciform, ok, thank you for the update. good to read the addendum is agreeable to you. let's set the amount closer to the settlement date.
[14:25] dorion: cruciform, how goes with hw 6 ?
[14:46] dorion: cruciform, let's see what jfw says about the amount when he wakes up and reads.
[16:56] dorion: hello dilynm, who might you be ?
[17:12] jfw: cruciform: maintaining the USD price of the product and evaluating exchange rate on the day of payment suits me
[17:23] dilynm: dorion: just some random linux enthusiast looking into statically building stuff, found gales
[17:47] dorion: dilynm, nice, welcome.
[17:50] dorion: dilynm, what interests you in static linking in particular ?
[17:50] dilynm: Mostly just for fun, I've read all sorts of stuff on static vs shared and the improvements don't seem *that* pronounced (if any exist at all), but I'd like to see it for myself
[17:51] dilynm: And I've run out of other projects for the time being, so learning more about cc/ld/ar etc seem worthwhile
[17:55] whaack: “The left environmentalist is not a reliable defender of nature: he’s “anti-racist” first and cares for nature second. ”
[17:55] whaack: heh misclick
[17:56] dilynm: Critical Theory is fun
[17:56] whaack: (that was supposed to be a meta-V to scroll up with yrc, instead a paste was inserted and sent i guess since it had a \n
[17:56] whaack: )
[18:18] jfw: dilynm: feel free to look around & ask questions; there's lots going on here, slowly & unglamorously, besides just static linking, and with quite some history too
[18:19] jfw: possibly random enthusiasm is all that's to be found in the world today anyway
[18:22] jfw: dilynm: not sure which improvements you're referring to but the main thing about static linking is the position that the supposed improvements offered by dynamic linking aren't worth the added complexity (and aren't even all that clearly improvements in the first place)
[18:27] dorion: dilynm, nice. do you have a blog where you publish what you've learned ?
[18:27] dorion: welcome back whaack, if it is was by accident paste, lol. how goes ?
[18:40] jfw appreciates how the unicode quotes show up in the lord's own latin1 in the log viewer
[18:40] sourcerer: 2020-11-30 17:55:02 (#jwrd) whaack: ???The left environmentalist is not a reliable defender of nature: he???s ???anti-racist??? first and cares for nature second. ???
[18:43] dilynm: jfw: yeah I've been reading through your stuff and there's some good work happening here! I agree about the complexity issue - part of my motivation the last year has been removing it from my laptop (I switched to KISS Linux 11 months ago for instance)
[18:43] dilynm: dorion: I have a website I just put up, but right now it just hosts my philosophical work. Eventually it will include docs about what I've learned...
[18:44] dilynm: Biggest project demonstrating some culmination of knowledge (I'm sure) is, bring KDE to KISS
[18:47] jfw: hah, now I wonder how one possibly arrives at KDE from a path of 'keeping it simple' - possibly with compass painted backwards?
[18:48] dilynm: Mostly just exploratory :)
[18:48] dilynm: The intention was to see what Arch, Alpine etc do and do it better
[18:49] dilynm: Biggest discovery is that if you use a dbus stub library, you could probably launch krita just fine! Which is cute
[18:55] jfw: there's all sorts of things that could work much better "if only the featherless bipeds involved had been a bit less monkeylike"; and you can fix them too, sure, but note that there's really no limit to how much time you can spend on cleaning and it's important to pick & choose
[18:56] dilynm: Very true
[18:56] dilynm: Luckily working from home has given me ample time to be far too liberal with such decision making
[18:58] jfw: I've been there indeed;
[19:02] jfw: time has a way of taking care of the problem of excess time all on its own though!
[19:02] jfw: and with that I'll bbl.
[19:19] dorion: dilynm, I'm curious to read your philosophy writing, mind linking ? jfw and I met in 2014 when he came to a philosophy centric meetup I hosted in Panama. I don't recall how much philosophy was disccused at that meet up in particular.
[19:21] dorion: -- what do you do for work ? where are you located ? I'm currently in Vermont.
[19:21] sourcerer: 2020-11-30 18:56:36 (#jwrd) dilynm: Luckily working from home has given me ample time to be far too liberal with such decision making
[19:35] dilynm: You're more than welcome to peak! the collection is broad and most of the writings are about things that disinterest me (I was trained as a logician)
[19:35] dilynm: I work for a bank in pennsylvania
[19:50] dorion: thanks for the link dliynm, will have a a read.
[19:59] dilynm: Most of them haven't been edited/cleaned up yet so you'll have to forgive the poor quality
[20:05] dorion: dilynm, at least you have a start. my blog is far from blemish free.
[20:12] dorion: dilynm, so this kiss linux is busybox + musl + shell based package manager, eh ?
[20:13] dilynm: Yeah
[20:13] dilynm: It's designed to be very hackable, as well. No good reason you couldn't use sbase and ubase, or coreutils, or systems, or or or...
[20:15] dorion: what's the bootstrapping process like ?
[20:17] dilynm: It comes with a ready-to-go x86_64 rootfs tarball that you just unarchive and chroot into
[20:17] dilynm: Build a kernel, add a bootloader, reboot and you're done
[20:17] dorion: dilynm, which are the packages you maintain for kiss ?
[20:17] dorion: wham, bam, thank you ma'am.
[20:21] dilynm: A breeze of an install to be sure!
[20:21] dilynm: I maintain a few in community... lz4, extra-cmake-modules, qt5{declarative,svg,webchannel,webengine,x11extras}, Falkon, viper (qt browser), nss
[20:21] dilynm: And quite a large number more in my own repo, plus the whole KDE stack
[20:28] dorion: dilynm, I see. gales linux is a bit more involved, but everything is distributed as source files, so the value to be had from a bit more up front work is you compile everything yourself.
[20:29] dilynm: For sure. I did LFS for a few months out of morbid curiosity and switched to KISS afterwards to simplify package management
[20:33] dorion: dilynm, if you manage to make a gales install a priority, I'd be curious to read how you think it compares between lfs and kiss.
[20:34] dilynm: Just looking at it, I'd think it falls somewhere in between. I'll probably have a go at it before the end of the year
[20:37] dorion: cool.

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