Fixpoint

Day changed to 2023-08-01
[08:01] dorion: http://dorion-mode.com/2023/08/chat-analysis-cutting-through-the-noise-signal-emits-to-show-you-dear-read-how-cancerous-it-is/
[13:18] sstacks: Hey guys, how is it going
[13:18] sstacks: dorion: in days in which there's massive surveillance, "privacy" is the new business narrative.
[13:30] jfw: in related cancers, seems all those archive.is links now become more liability than asset
[13:33] jfw: in case the ratcheting to https then forced-https wasn't enough hint that humans were unwelcome there
[13:34] jfw: morning, sstacks
[13:34] sstacks: jfw: morning fren
[13:35] jfw: I think I get what you mean about privacy as business narrative but mind expanding a bit?
[13:39] jfw: like, it's something that customers say they want, while expressing otherwise through their actions at each possible step, so businesses that target those masses and aren't particularly truth-constrained are stuck contorting themselves into great knots of pretense about how their invasions are more privacy-respecting than the other guy's?
[19:22] sstacks: jfw: Oh yes, when I say "business narrative" I intend to express that every "solution" provider uses that keyword (Privacy) on their marketing strategy, even when they cannot provide such privacy because their foundational infrastructure (server provider, centralized nature)
[20:05] jfw: I'm hereby coining the word 'innovasion'. Such innovasive businesses!
[20:08] dorion: !bash 1
Day changed to 2023-08-02
[02:02] jfw: aaand http://jfxpt.com/library/rfc/ is live.
[02:07] dorion: jfw, win.
[02:07] jfw: so dorion, here's your IRC and OpenPGP; updating/obsoleting refs can be found in the index.
[02:41] jfw: also now verified that latest collection indeed doesn't change any of the documents since my last grab in July 2017. besides the newly issued rfcs (>=8127) and index update, it adds old PDFs for rfc2 and rfc270, then just removes a number of .txt placeholders saying "was never issued" and the like.
[03:02] jfw: index page updated to better illustrate & clarify.
[15:51] xissburg: Hi it's Nilson
[15:57] sstacks: hey Nilson, welcome
[15:57] sstacks: Guys, TEKA today at 5pm? Or is it later?
[16:26] xissburg: o/
[16:27] xissburg: 5:30pm afaik
[16:53] dorion: xissburg, welcome ! you're right. 5:30pm is when happy hour starts. presentation will likely start around 6:30, maybe a bit later.
[19:10] whaack2: howdy. sorry for going awol and missing last thursday. i came down with corona, just now feeling a bit better
[19:10] whaack2: will pass msg along to atlas
[21:55] jfw: welcome xissburg, hope to see you shortly.
[21:56] jfw: whaack: aw, I thought that was last year's fashion. anyway recover well.
[22:01] jfw: hopefully joe biden's america doesn't infect me on upcoming trip, so far I somehow managed to miss out
Day changed to 2023-08-03
[02:00] junto_teka: ajoy de la junto en teka!
[02:03] junto_teka: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8503 - I'm told that this is bad spanglish.
[02:03] sourcerer: 2023-08-03 02:00:24 (#jwrd) junto_teka: ajoy de la junto en teka!
[15:13] dorion: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-aug-2023/#8498 -- heya whaack, glad to hear your bouncing back.
[15:13] sourcerer: 2023-08-02 19:10:16 (#jwrd) whaack2: howdy. sorry for going awol and missing last thursday. i came down with corona, just now feeling a bit better
[15:19] dorion: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-aug-2023/#8503 -- aaah, the j is silent, per : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvnXI-86b6Q
[15:19] sourcerer: 2023-08-03 02:00:24 (#jwrd) junto_teka: ajoy de la junto en teka!
[15:29] sstacks: whaack2: Well-come bro
[15:30] sstacks: Morning guys. Great presentation last night.
[15:30] sstacks: Excited to be here
[16:34] dorion: sstacks, thanks ;-)
[16:37] dorion: xissburg, sstacks, here's the instructions for WoT registration. xissburg, do you still have that ancient key of yours ?
[17:24] xissburg: dorion: I actually might still have it. I still have the machine where it was likely generated back then. I will have to check.
[17:59] dorion: cool. depending on your practices back then compared to now, might want to consider generating a new one even if you do dust off the old one. if you want a new one and still have the old one, can sign a statement with the old key saying you're moving on to the new one to have some verifiable continuity.
[18:07] jfw: doesn't seem like much value accumulated to the old key to make it worth the bother, but perhaps a good exercise anyway.
[18:08] xissburg: you mean simply signing a message with the old key mentioning the new key?
[18:09] jfw: xissburg: correct, something like I did here
[18:12] xissburg: that looks very professional :)
[18:15] jfw: a little grandiose perhaps but no harm done.
[18:17] dorion: xissburg, it pays to be precise with your language when signing, there's an infamous case where a guy signed "I agree". which rekt his key cuz, "agree to what now ?"
[18:46] xissburg: absolutely
[19:01] dorion: jfw, did you see how massive his l2 is with the old key though. not sure how active/alive the l1 is though.
[19:30] jfw: dorion, that'd be because sturles was this guy who hung out there and did (perhaps still does?) lots of small trades with newbies. so I'd expect l2 would be much of the -otc regulars but not sure the rating would carry much weight.
[19:36] dorion: good point.
[20:19] xissburg: what is l2 and l1?
[20:20] jfw: xissburg: levels/degrees of separation. so l1 is people you rated directly, l2 is anyone they rated and so on.
[20:20] jfw: or in this case the other way around.
[20:35] xissburg: got it
Day changed to 2023-08-04
[01:44] xissburg: I have posted a comment with my current GPG key
[01:45] xissburg: I have also signed a message with my old key which can find here along with the old public key https://gist.github.com/xissburg/327e5b8b706476dc07c042af9d48c742
[01:46] xissburg: I guess you could verify it with that info?
[01:51] dorion: xissburg, cool. the signature checks out for me. for the future, we have a paste service : http://welshcomputing.com/paste/
[01:56] jfw: the comment went straight to spam, so I fished it out. not sure why, I kinda thought that was just supposed to happen for IPs with prior known spam but it's all a bit complicated.
[02:01] xissburg: dorion: nice. Is it possible to transfer the WoT reputation to the new key?
[02:02] jfw: xissburg: the new key & transfer look good to me.
[02:05] dorion: xissburg, there have been prior examples of forking the bitcoin-otc wot. deedbot is an example. you're on in that one because it forked from the nanotube wot a few years before 2016. we decided to start fresh with ours rather than carry around that old weight because the point of the wot is gathering information and cutting through the noise for the signal.
[02:05] jfw: I'd say fundamentally the new key is a new identity, so automatic transfer like that doesn't make sense; if the operator of a WoT database allowed that it'd basically mean he's tampering with the record. it's up to the individuals who rated or otherwise used the old key whether to honor the transfer, basically.
[02:05] dorion: if we imported all that history, most of which from people we don't know and don't know if it'd kinf of defeat the purpose.
[02:06] dorion: to build on what jfw is saying, if you want sturles rating to transfer over, go talk to him and tell him to register with us.
[02:07] dorion: probably better to wait a little bit until we get around to formally writing what our plan is with it. and also getting more of the infrastructure in place.
[02:10] xissburg: no worries, was just wondering.
[02:11] xissburg: I get your point. Now how do I register my nick with a pw? Generally they use NickServ on IRC. I don't see a NickServ here.
[02:14] jfw: xissburg: see http://jfxpt.com/2023/grand-reopening-of-jwrd-the-irc-channel/?b=There%20are%20still&e=identity.#select ; basically we consider the gpg registration to be primary, thus it's unclear as yet if another password layer is helpful or necessary
[02:14] xissburg: ok but do I have to do anything extra?
[02:14] jfw: nope, all set as far as registration :)
[02:15] jfw: more likely we'll implement a bot to issue gpg challenges before something like NickServ.
[02:16] xissburg: Oh ok I see it, thanks
[02:16] dorion: xissburg, not worried at all, your wondering is welcome !
[18:48] junto_teka: ajoy from the junto at TEKA. (I'm making the screen recording)
[18:50] junto_teka: ....waiting for the recording to catch up so I can show the next steps.
[18:51] junto_teka: heya sstacks. no deja vu
[18:51] junto_teka: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8551 -- is sourcerer awake ?
[18:51] sourcerer: 2023-08-04 18:48:07 (#jwrd) junto_teka: ajoy from the junto at TEKA. (I'm making the screen recording)
[18:51] sstacks: junto_teka: heyyy!!
Day changed to 2023-08-07
[18:46] dorion: in other noose, zoom gets even more evil. paste of article text.
[19:26] jfw: I guess the idea is to replace 90% of people on important business conference calls with AI
[19:38] sstacks: Im getting ready to create a new GPG key now to register on the WoT
[19:39] jfw: sounds good sstacks
[19:39] sstacks: Had trouble remembering if I could export or not to another machine after creating it on other. Got confused because I noticed you guys had more than one key. (http://jfxpt.com/2023/grand-reopening-of-jwrd-the-irc-channel/?b=If%20you%20wish%20to%20register%20an%20IRC&e=#select)
[19:40] dorion: sstacks, gpg allows you to export both pubkey and priv key to ascii.
[19:41] dorion: generally, you want a main key that has a higher security profile. that one at least should be created on the offline machine. you should back it up to a new disk(s) that you only connect to the offline machine.
[19:42] sstacks: I guess is good practice to create at least 2 on the offline machine (as recommended).. Keep the main one on that machine and export a secondary one for "trivial" use?
[19:43] jfw: it doesn't hurt except for having more keys to keep track of; for instance I have a 'travel' key that lives on an online machine.
[19:43] sstacks: dorion: ok, great. So get a new disk for offline machine use exclusively
[19:45] jfw: sstacks: I'd start with that primary, offline key, you can always create more later when the need arises
[19:45] sstacks: jfw: ok, will do.
[19:46] jfw: so then you export and transfer only the public key to the network, obviously.
[19:48] dorion: sstacks, yeah, like jfw said, better to wait till you have a real reason to create secondary keys ; they'll be more meaningful when you have reasons. otherwise, premature optimization.
[19:49] dorion: so for now, take you time and create the primary one with care. e.g. use the trng for password and key generation. practice with it. back it. all that stuff. it's good to register sooner rather than later, but don't rush the process to get it done such that you skip steps.
[20:04] sstacks: dorion: thanks. I do intend to use my top security toys
[20:14] dorion: sstacks, i suspected that was the case, but figured I'd say it for the log at least.
[21:13] sstacks: Hey guys, i already used TRNG to make a password
[21:14] sstacks: Now im feeding the the system's /dev/urandom with the device. How much time i should wait until hitting ctrl+c
[21:23] sstacks: Or should i open another session while running this on the first session?
[21:50] sstacks: right now trying to export my public key to online machine
[21:52] sstacks: on the sending side: cat sstacks.pub > /dev/ttyUSB0 on receiving side: hexdump /dev/ttyUSB1 > sstacks.pub (as name of the file where i want the data to get stored)
[21:53] sstacks: ttyUSBx are ok because i checked used dmesg | tail
[21:54] sstacks: the sending diode has the cable connected to one color, and the other end of the cable is connected to the opposite color on the diode.
[22:00] sstacks: its useful to say that i can actually get some data transfered, just not my key xD
[22:07] jfw: sstacks: on feeding urandom, I let it run continuously in its own session/terminal or background.
[22:07] jfw: sstacks: on transmitting the key, possibly you just need to lose the 'hexdump'. that's for testing, but once the link is good, you just want the raw data, you're double-encoding there.
[22:09] sstacks: jfw: thanks. So, getting rid of hexdump command and leave the rest
[22:10] sstacks: jfw: so test with hexdump, and once i get the proper signal, i execute /dev/ttyUSDB1 > sstacks.pub
Day changed to 2023-08-08
[12:26] dorion: sstacks, you need to cat the ttyUSB1 device, so `cat /dev/ttyUSB1 > sstacks.pub`
[20:38] sstacks: jfw: hey
[20:41] sstacks: im doing /dev/ttyUSB1 > sstacks.pub and getting cannot execute, permission denied.
[20:41] sstacks: tried cat /dev/ttyUSB1 > sstacks.pub and got unreadable text
[22:04] jfw: sstacks: the cat is necessary, as dorion says, /dev/ttyUSB1 is just a file (device node) not a command so indeed not executable ('permission denied' namely execute permission)
[22:05] jfw: as to unreadable text, did you do the stty configuration step first?
[22:05] jfw: I imagine so if the hexdump tests were working, but we can start there for the sake of covering all bases.
[22:06] jfw: that's: stty -F /dev/ttyUSB1 115200 raw -echo -echoe -echok
Day changed to 2023-08-09
[12:16] sstacks: Morning guys
[12:17] sstacks: jfw: Thanks for response and sorry for trouble. I indeed executed stty config. As unreadable text you may imagine something like trying to open an encrypted text.
[12:22] sstacks: Actually after trying to open the transmitted data, even if i clear the terminal..it remains altered, so i have to open a new terminal
[18:01] jfw: sstacks: I'll be around for a bit, ping me when you have a chance and we can work through it live
Day changed to 2023-08-12
[18:04] jfw: oye sstacks, que xopa?
Day changed to 2023-08-14
[18:20] sstacks: jfw: xopa bro, we can coordinate for this week. Maybe thursday?
[19:29] jfw: sstacks: alright
[19:29] jfw: btw your network seems to drop out a lot, or at least your irc connection times out
[19:51] jfw: w00t, I've turned back the clock on the decay of personal computer peripherals to before USB wrecked everything, to be itself rekt in turn by wireless, apple-flavored-usb and so on.
[19:53] jfw: by working with the enemy: got a USB adapter which gives my laptop its missing PS/2 ports, into which plugs a pure PS/2 mouse (new) and my existing mechanical 'Das Keyboard' through its own USB to PS/2 adapter; all working well so far.
[19:54] jfw: no OS-detected 'plug events', driver reloads etc when connecting the PS/2 ports.
[19:55] jfw: now I can buy a traditional PS/2 KVM and hopefully be rid of artificial switching delays and have more reliable hotkeys.
[19:58] jfw: fwiw, my gentoo and gales machines didn't experience such delays but CentOS and Windows did, intermittently; like 10 seconds for the keyboard to start working, crazy.
[20:01] jfw: adapter and mouse, ftr.
[20:09] jfw: the adapter amusingly identifies itself as 'Barcode Reader'.
[20:19] jfw: less happily, the mouse (with German markings but made in China) has a case of the "singing capacitors", making faint but audible whining noises. more of a buzz when its red light is dimmed/power saving and a super high pitch ringing, near the upper end of my hearing range, when active.
Day changed to 2023-08-15
[00:04] sstacks: jfw: yes.. ive set my computer to go to sleep after 25 minutues of innactivity
[00:51] jfw: hmm, to my mind, "computer is connected to the outside world and recording transmissions on its not-immediately-present owner's behalf" is not in the category of "inactivity"
[00:52] sstacks: It certainly tricks my mind when i see all lights and fans off
[00:53] sstacks: Although, there must be some reception if it comes back when i start keystroking or mouse clicking
[01:06] jfw: there's some standby circuit, sure, or possibly even a whole separate processor for power management (there usually is on laptops, the 'embedded controller')
[01:08] jfw: might be worth considering whether the sleepy computer really benefits you, or is more about benefitting the SS
[01:08] jfw: otherwise sure, not everything needs to be on all the time; what about using yrc on the thinkpad?
[12:10] sstacks: jfw: morning.. it actually sounds like a great idea (using yrc on the thinkpad)
Day changed to 2023-08-17
[15:54] jfw: sstacks, how's the schedule looking?
[20:01] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2023/dns-kiting/
[21:29] jfw: emailed the designated list at cr.yp.to too, so we'll see how that goes.
Day changed to 2023-08-18
[00:36] sstacks: greetins
[00:54] jfw: yo sstacks, this the yrc now?
[16:44] sstacks: jfw: hey fren.. yes, im on the yrc now
[16:45] jfw: nice.
[19:29] jfw: http://ossasepia.com/2023/08/06/the-syntax-of-world-knowledge-in-eulora2/ perhaps worth linking in here - a new or at least refreshed entry point to the world of eulora2 for the data-interested
[20:32] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8605 - got this set up and so far it seems to be working great, even with all the adapters involved. only trouble with the theory is that there's not much left of that 'tradition' and I found exactly one model of switch within my specs; so much for "consumer choice" yet again. fortunately it appears to be a sane
[20:32] sourcerer: 2023-08-14 19:55:17 (#jwrd) jfw: now I can buy a traditional PS/2 KVM and hopefully be rid of artificial switching delays and have more reliable hotkeys.
[20:32] jfw: model.
Day changed to 2023-08-19
[22:29] jfw: unfortunately I've already seen some failures from the KVM setup, like keys getting stuck repeating for a couple seconds while the keyboard resets or something, and switching hotkey sequences not activating if I type them too fast. actually the two seem related. first hope is that it's the keyboard's usb adapting at fault and a pure ps/2 kb might help.
Day changed to 2023-08-22
[13:46] sstacks: hgnmj
[13:46] sstacks: sorry, cat passed over the keyboard
[13:46] sstacks: greetings faimly
[13:47] dorion: sstacks, good morning.
[13:47] dorion: how are you getting along with yrc ?
[13:49] dorion: jfw, fyi, blakeeus is going to spot by on saturday at 10am panama time to discuss/strategize making his year long school project jwrd related.
[15:33] jfw: sstacks, at least you have a communicative cat, if only we could decipher what she's saying!
[15:35] jfw: dorion: sounds good, I expect I can be around then
[15:35] jfw: welcome damaris
[22:49] sstacks: dorion: hey friend. Well its not as easy as hexchat on windows. But i should be getting used to it as I use it. Need to read thouroughly the yrc manual
[22:50] sstacks: jfw: he is indeed communicative.. sometimes i think he want to spend my btc to buy cat treats.
[23:08] jfw: sstacks: I bet.
[23:08] jfw: sstacks: certainly your connection has been more stable now.
Day changed to 2023-08-23
[02:55] jfw: "Note that bugs in the legacy PCRE release are unlikely to be looked at or fixed ... The PCRE library was written by Philip Hazel ... Please note that neither this website nor the SourceForge download repositories are maintained by Philip." - someone call child protective services, this is quite some confession of neglect.
[02:59] jfw: I was already of the notion that pcre was a thing that had no business existing, there's a non-bloated libc standard regex facility after all; unfortunately it's demanded by both php and apache; nginx too if you don't want to disable basic functionality; and probably lots of other things.
[03:00] jfw: "PCRE was originally written for the Exim MTA" - aka the bastards responsible for the one time I had a server get hacked.
Day changed to 2023-08-24
[00:05] sstacks: aqq.///////////,,,,,
[01:47] jfw: sstacks: speaking of which, I was wondering, do you find Panamanian culture & society has the concept of 'freedom of speech', or place much value on it, whether in lip service or in practice? not sure if it's a more North American belief or not.
[01:47] jfw: *places
[01:51] jfw: I find they've picked up the unfortunate nonsense about 'derecho de autor'. That there aren't bootleg DVDs selling for $2 on Via Veneto is a wasted opportunity it seems to me.
[02:25] dorion: jfw, I recall bootleg DVDs being sold here back in the day, but suspect ~everyone has been herded onto streaming platforms. on top of that, not like there's any good modern movies. if you want the goods, gotta go for oldies and people who are on that track know how to torrent.
[02:26] jfw: what day are we talking?
[02:27] jfw: I recall reading that it used to happen but not seeing it.
[02:33] jfw: certainly in the states it's gone streaming; I confess I'm not sure what ~everyone does in panama. my small sample suggests "streaming over vpn from usa". when I first came, I still had a netflix, and found the streaming selection was even worse than before, if such a thing were possible. didn't keep the subscription long after that.
[14:09] dorion: jfw, I don't recall exactly, but when I first got here I remember being offered.
[14:11] dorion: wrt streaming in panama, I hear in conversation from time to time, "you gotta watch X, it's on netflix" the assumption being that I have netflix.
[22:18] sstacks: jfw: Well, what ive seen in Panama regarding to "freedom of speeh" is actually an illusion, since you may share your beliefs or opinion, but youll get ignored or attacked if isnt politically correct. Regarding to copyrights, havent stumbled upon anything like that.
[22:21] sstacks: can you guys walk me through how to open yrc DMs from the thinkpad?
[22:22] sstacks: jfw: regarding the "freedom of speech" illusion, i would add that it might be related to the hypersensitivity this late generations have been suffering.
[22:59] jfw: "thou shalt not say anything that might hurt someone's feeeelings"
[23:02] jfw: I'd say it's looking pretty illusory in the states too, but it's nominally there as a well-known if not well-understood principle to point to, written right in the first constitutional amendment.
[23:02] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8657 - /msg nickname [Enter]
[23:02] sourcerer: 2023-08-24 22:21:22 (#jwrd) sstacks: can you guys walk me through how to open yrc DMs from the thinkpad?
Day changed to 2023-08-25
[00:04] dorion: sstacks, if you're trying to switch windows on yrc, you can do Crtl-x w and that will get you to the window list. then you can arrow up and down and use vim keys for up and down too.
[00:04] dorion: http://dorion-mode.com/2023/08/darien-mode/
[00:52] sstacks: dorion: thanks bro
[00:52] sstacks: jfw: i suppose /msg nickname is for opening a DM myself
[00:53] sstacks: Fabulous!
[00:53] sstacks: Feeling stronger already
[00:54] jfw: sstacks: indeed, although it also works to switch.
[00:59] sstacks: jfw: havent looked what does "freedom of speech" formally implies, but I understand that everyone has the right to express their opinion through any public mediumm. People can of course not always agree, as long they dont fall on ad hominem attacks. Does this means they wouldnt have the freedom of criticizing my person? Certainly they do. But for me his opinion and arguments would lack of
[00:59] sstacks: substance.
[01:16] jfw: what it means formally gets complicated and hard to pin down. there was a lengthy essay dealing with that, that I never finished and can't presently find... at least, the most basic & trite example is, should you have a right to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater?
[01:16] jfw: (falsely)
[01:19] jfw: ah, it was John Hasnas, The Myth of the Rule of Law and it's a dead link but seems to be findable in various places.
[01:22] jfw: http://trilema.com/2013/the-sops-or-what-might-you-expect-from-government-clerks/#comment-95324 probably where I found it.
[01:32] jfw: anyway, this came up because our prospective ISP has an "ethical use" clause in their contract that read to us as pretty broad censorship powers, so was thinking about how to talk to them about it.
[01:56] sstacks: jfw: we would need to precise what type of speech its free to express according to the "freedom of speech" ethos
[01:57] sstacks: (if i wanted to access to that trilema link from here, how to do it?)
[01:58] sstacks: I did found the document you refering to..ill check it out.
[01:58] jfw: sstacks: that's a pain of irc and browsing on separate machines indeed. perhaps easiest to click in the logs?
[01:59] sstacks: Could you quote the ISP clause?
[01:59] jfw: sure
[02:02] jfw: "[ISP] esta en todo el derecho de suspender, desconectar o negar la prestacion del o los servicios pactados en los siguientes casos: ... 3. Cuando detecte que EL CLIENTE esta utilizando el servicio objeto del presente contrato para publicar informacion que se preste para uso abusivo o no etico, el cual incluye, aunque no esta limitado a: pornografia, obscenidad, desnudez, violaciones a la
[02:02] jfw: privacidad, virus de computadoras, y cualquier material o uso danino, inclusive usos que violen la Ley de Derecho de autor, o cualquier uso ilicito."
[02:06] sstacks: yikes, sounds pretty totalitarian indeed. Orwellian stuff
[02:07] jfw: better not publish Windows, it's a known computer virus after all!
[02:07] sstacks: So the concern would be: who judges whats abusive or unethical on a relative era?
[02:08] jfw: right. it's broad and subjective, and doesn't even give a notification / takedown / appeal process
[02:08] sstacks: when i thought they would specify the unethical examples, it get even BROADER when saying stating "not limited to.."
[02:09] jfw: better not publish any medical encylopedias or Rennaisance art either.
[02:09] sstacks: We also should also presuppose they do have access to our activity
[02:10] sstacks: not only access, they even ponder it
[02:11] sstacks: Id add, as a christian, not to publish biblical content, could be an abusive behaviour
[02:11] jfw: certainly they could see what's published; kinda the nature of publishing.
[02:12] sstacks: right, it indeed says "publicar"
[02:12] jfw: as far as encrypted stuff, if they can't read it they can't be offended by it so doesn't really matter here.
[02:16] jfw: and myeah, abusive *of what* ? I'd be fine with "don't spam or try to hack your fellow tenants" or whatever
[02:20] jfw: I already sent a first inquiry about dropping this and clarifying a different part, they responded awkwardly about the other and just ignored the more inconvenient question about this. pretty unimpressive. or rather, makes an impression and not a good one.
[02:22] jfw: it does sound like they're quite going for http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8659 , the obvious problem being what about my feelings that are hurt when my voice is silenced ?
[02:22] sourcerer: 2023-08-24 22:59:43 (#jwrd) jfw: "thou shalt not say anything that might hurt someone's feeeelings"
[12:08] sstacks: Yes, "customer support" are used to reply to inconvenint questions by ignoring them or embellishing the response with paraphernalia
[12:09] sstacks: tinged with a cynical cordiality
[16:57] dorion: welcome mechs.
[16:59] dorion: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8701 -- ever read : http://trilema.com/2012/strategic-superiority-a-saga/ ?
[16:59] sourcerer: 2023-08-25 12:08:42 (#jwrd) sstacks: Yes, "customer support" are used to reply to inconvenint questions by ignoring them or embellishing the response with paraphernalia
[17:01] dorion: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8693 -- I've never been deep in the xtianity, but why is it unchristian to publish biblical content ? first time hearing it, or maybe I don't take your meaning.
[17:01] sourcerer: 2023-08-25 02:11:08 (#jwrd) sstacks: Id add, as a christian, not to publish biblical content, could be an abusive behaviour
[17:06] jfw: dorion: he's saying the mob could call the christian content itself abusive.
[17:07] mechs: hello
[17:09] dorion: who might you be mechs ?
[17:10] dorion: jfw, oic.
[17:10] mechs: i am a friend of Samuel Ramos, we talk about crypto a lot
[17:14] mechs: he showed me the dorion-mode and fixpoint blogs
[17:15] mechs: i've been interested in minimalist distros for a while now so Gales LInux caught my attention
[17:15] jfw: hey, nice
[17:15] mechs: I also spent some time using Gentoo with musl and it was disastrous
[17:16] mechs: for the moment, I have been using Artix
[17:16] jfw: been a while since I published much Gales work but it's been ongoing in the background. about time I got around to a fresh release
[17:16] jfw: heh, what happened with gentoo/musl?
[17:17] mechs: it was a mess with all the different overlays to make it work, it is just too unstable. Alpine was a better experience but not without its problems
[17:18] mechs: it was also really stupid since all of this was done with a librebooted thinkpad t400
[17:21] jfw: I suppose it depends what you want to get out of it. Alpine had a lot of packages pretty much working out of the box. Gales has a much smaller set, no GUI for instance, and focuses on being a cohesive system that works well for what it does, and with emphasis on building from source.
[17:22] jfw: gentoo claims to be that but fails if you actually try to reproduce the stage3.
[17:23] jfw: plus with all the version churn and the many possible combinations of use flags and there's always something broken.
[17:23] jfw: mechs: what was stupid because of the thinkpad?
[17:23] jfw: mechs: are you from Panama too?
[17:23] mechs: yeah compile times were long even wth the -j flags
[17:23] mechs: yeah im from Panama
[17:25] jfw: cool, I live there for the most part but seems I have to escape from time to time.
[17:25] jfw: sometimes the policies, sometimes just the humidity
[17:28] mechs: In my experience, North Florida weather was worse with its intense heat waves
[17:29] dorion: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8712 -- cool !
[17:29] sourcerer: 2023-08-25 17:10:38 (#jwrd) mechs: i am a friend of Samuel Ramos, we talk about crypto a lot
[17:30] jfw: could be, though I expect there's some more seasonal variation at least
[17:30] jfw: I found the south florida climate pretty tolerable
[17:31] mechs: though winter are spring are nice in north Fl, So Flo is indeed better
[17:32] dorion: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8727 -- you think that was on account of libreboot or the t400 itself ?
[17:32] sourcerer: 2023-08-25 17:23:54 (#jwrd) mechs: yeah compile times were long even wth the -j flags
[17:33] dorion: what do you do for a living mechs ? you sound fairly technical.
[17:34] mechs: i am a freelance dev
[17:37] jfw: I figure build times are mostly long because of bloated code on one hand and bloated build systems on the other
[17:37] dorion: mechs, nice, do you have a speciality ?
[17:38] jfw: then bloated compilers would make the third leg, though at least they can be tuned on optimization level
[17:38] mechs: i know C, C++ best, although been forced by warped markets to do webdev related work(cringe)
[17:39] mechs: so many modern compilers are horrifying yes, bulding gcc took hours haha
[17:39] jfw: heh, I can feel that cringe
[17:42] mechs: i've been getting into scheme in order to understand c++23
[17:42] mechs: c++20 i mean lol
[17:43] jfw: huh, they put scheme in c++ now ??
[17:44] jfw: I do have a liking for scheme, they just seem like rather different things
[17:44] mechs: they added lambdas and many other features from functional langs
[17:45] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8744 - "What you will have I'll give, and willing too, For do we must what force will have us do." - Richard II
[17:45] sourcerer: 2023-08-25 17:38:56 (#jwrd) mechs: i know C, C++ best, although been forced by warped markets to do webdev related work(cringe)
[17:45] dorion: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8745 -- which gcc version ?
[17:45] sourcerer: 2023-08-25 17:39:33 (#jwrd) mechs: so many modern compilers are horrifying yes, bulding gcc took hours haha
[17:46] mechs: hmm it was an older version, i did all fo this in 2021
[17:46] dorion: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8747 -- ever come across gales scheme ?
[17:46] sourcerer: 2023-08-25 17:42:15 (#jwrd) mechs: i've been getting into scheme in order to understand c++23
[17:47] mechs: ill check out gales scheme, so far i've used racket and gauche
[17:48] dorion: mechs, gales linux uses 4.7 and doesn't take hours. heck bootstrapping the entire toolchain takes less than 2 hours, iirc.
[17:49] jfw: possibly under an hour when scripted, on the X200.
[17:49] dorion: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8759 -- cool, the author (jfw) is quite responsive, so feel free to ask questions on that article or in here !
[17:49] sourcerer: 2023-08-25 17:47:48 (#jwrd) mechs: ill check out gales scheme, so far i've used racket and gauche
[17:50] jfw: gales scheme probably has the most approachable implementation, being as it is a smaller and younger one (and my work)
[17:50] mechs: very nice
[17:52] jfw: won't have "all the comforts of home" especially on editing, error recovery & debug features, but I've nonetheless implemented quite a bit using it.
[17:53] mechs: going to use it for SICP heh
[17:56] jfw: well, I know a guy who even tried doing SICP in Common Lisp to make it more exciting or something, but MIT Scheme will allow the textbook examples to work most directly. Schemes are not all that standardized on the details, being as it was a research & teaching language firstly
[17:56] mechs: hahaha yeah its all too fragmented
[17:57] jfw: I tried to follow the r5rs standard to the tee, but some parts got quite involved and others left too much unspecified
[17:57] jfw: one warning about SICP is it might make you want to write your own interpreter :D
[17:59] mechs: I did try to write an interpreter(not for a lisp, a much simpler lang) a couple years ago using Lemon
[18:00] mechs: doing it with a functional language should be fun
[18:01] jfw: can't say I've heard of Lemon
[18:01] mechs: it is the parser generator used by SQLite i think
[18:04] jfw: ah. well, one thing about lisp or at least scheme is the parsing is pretty simple, and control structures too. the idea is to do the core functional bits right and then other conveniences can be built on that (just as they could be built on gotos or whatnot in the imperative paradigm)
[18:05] jfw: mechs: you ever looked at Ada? to me it's sort of the "what C++ should have been, if it weren't C++"
[18:08] jfw: it's perhaps not widely used, but used by smart people, with Eulora probably the most interesting thing going in it at the moment
[18:13] jfw: but I will bbl.
[18:27] mechs: good to know man, perhaps I should check out Ada. very intriguiing description
[18:40] dorion: mech, here's some entry points for eulora2 and eucrypt, which is written in Ada.
[18:41] dorion: mechs*
[18:53] mechs: awesome
[19:15] dorion: heya whaack, how's it goin' up north ? when are you headed back this way ?
[22:55] whaack: Hey all about to step out but I should be back in Central America within the next 2 1/2 weeks
[22:56] whaack: I will certainly consider doing a panama stop but it would probably be after a month of being back home or so
[22:56] whaack: I'll catch up more later
Day changed to 2023-08-26
[14:55] dorion: good morning blakeeus_
[14:55] blakeeus_: good morning dorion
[14:57] dorion: how goes ?
[14:57] blakeeus_: all good, pretty busy with school, how about yourself?
[14:58] dorion: nice, pretty normal here.
[14:58] blakeeus_: that's nice to hear
[14:58] dorion: so for this school project, you gotta do 80h of service for some community. do you have some freedom in what kind of community you serve ?
[14:59] blakeeus_: so, it has to be for either the population of panama, some fund raiser, or for the school.
[15:00] dorion: fund raiser for who ?
[15:00] blakeeus_: Some charity for example, so this is something like a marathon or a beach cleanup etc.
[15:01] dorion: but they have to be in Panama ?
[15:02] blakeeus_: Not necessarily, no.
[15:03] dorion: ok. have any ideas so far ?
[15:03] dorion: wrt what you want to do ?
[15:05] blakeeus_: I haven't put much thought into it yet because I am focused on an exam I have on Monday, however, I thought about killing some hours with this fund raiser run that will be at the cinta costera and when I go visit my grandmother I can volunteer at her residence.
[15:06] dorion: oh, so the 80h can be spread among various causes ?
[15:06] blakeeus_: Yes.
[15:06] blakeeus_: It is 80h in total
[15:06] dorion: how do they verify the 80h is served ? self-reporting ?
[15:06] blakeeus_: Not in one activity
[15:07] blakeeus_: That is what was not explained to us, about how they will count the hours.
[15:07] blakeeus_: But I suppose that if I work 5h a day for 10 days as a volunteer in my grandmas residence that counts as 50h
[15:08] dorion: well is that interesting/enriching to you ? or simply a way to check the boxes for them ?
[15:10] blakeeus_: A bit of both, I mean on my break I would like to rest but at the same time it would make me feel good, however, that is just one service, I have the rest of hours to kil as well, so I need to find other things.
[15:11] blakeeus_: Personally, I feel that the service part is the easier task. The thing that will complicate me I feel is activity and creativity.
[15:12] dorion: mind saying for the log was CAS stands for ?
[15:13] blakeeus_: C: Create A: Activity: S: Service
[15:13] blakeeus_: Basically, in the C criteria, I must create something, this could be a physical or digital product.
[15:14] blakeeus_: for an activity, I must do something, like go on a hike or get my pilots license
[15:14] blakeeus_: And for service basically do something for the community of Panama or the School
[15:15] dorion: or a fund raiser for some other community outside panama.
[15:15] blakeeus_: exactly.
[15:15] dorion: if it's outside panama, does the service have to be a fund raiser ?
[15:16] blakeeus_: No, it can be a volunteering too, what do you have in mind?
[15:18] dorion: well, on the creativity side, one thing you could 'create' would be a blog. i put create in quotes because I don't mean create/develop the software. it'd be more installing it and customizing it to you, but then you would create the content for it.
[15:19] blakeeus_: Right, that is what I had in mind for the create criteria.
[15:19] dorion: nice. then a good chunk of the content to start could be documenting the service you give.
[15:20] blakeeus_: Right, something I left out in the 'rules' of the 'game' is that we can relate an activity to all 3
[15:21] dorion: isn't activity already the A part ?
[15:21] blakeeus_: For example, baking cookies from scratch, I am creating something and performing an action as well, and lets say if I donate them, I can relate that to a service.
[15:22] dorion: ok.
[15:22] dorion: basically they can all be related, but don't have to be.
[15:22] blakeeus_: Yes
[15:26] dorion: one idea that comes to mind that integrates all 3 would be to publish articles on what you can learn about all the people that've contributed code to Bitcoin. this would be a due dilligence service and useful because code represents a form of counterparty risk and if doing dilligence on who you're accepting code from is important for understanding and mitigating your risk and the risk in the
[15:26] dorion: system.
[15:27] blakeeus_: I feel that is a great idea, however, 2 factors: do I have time for that? / I have to get a supervisors approval on each project before starting it.
[15:28] blakeeus_: Also, the idea is that they are projects that have a beginning and an end so you can start a new one
[15:28] blakeeus_: since after each one I have to write a 500 word reflection to upload to the academic service we use: ManageBac
[15:29] dorion: how much time are you planning for this altogether ?
[15:29] blakeeus_: In total I believe it is 140h
[15:30] dorion: and when is it all due ?
[15:30] blakeeus_: But What i mean about the time factor in writing articles is that I already have 5h of homework when I get home, never mind the weekend.
[15:30] blakeeus_: May 2025
[15:31] blakeeus_: Which is why summer break and other breaks is when I can dedicate my all to this
[15:32] dorion: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8834 -- but it can be one longer project ?
[15:32] sourcerer: 2023-08-26 15:28:14 (#jwrd) blakeeus_: Also, the idea is that they are projects that have a beginning and an end so you can start a new one
[15:33] blakeeus_: Yes, but it will not be as efficient I feel.
[15:33] dorion: well, probably depends on how you approach it.
[15:33] blakeeus_: Because I have to keep writing articles and that is a hard thing to measure hour wise
[15:33] dorion: why is it hard to measure ?
[15:34] blakeeus_: Well, what you said, about how will they verify the amount of hours it took me to put into it.
[15:34] blakeeus_: Also, I have to see if the web community is valid to receive a service.
[15:36] dorion: well, you could establish a self-reporting system. keep a log of time spent, publish those too. you'll accumulate a body of work in the research reports and people could compare the time keeping work reports to the research output.
[15:36] dorion: sure, understood it has to be approved.
[15:37] blakeeus_: Alright, yeah. I can ask on Monday about this.
[15:37] blakeeus_: And then I start as soon as possible.
[15:37] dorion: we're in the brainstorming phase here, once we get something interesting/useful to you, can tailor how we explain it to your supervisor to raise the odds of approval.
[15:38] blakeeus_: Ok, sure.
[15:38] dorion: re internet community, do they expect people to travel to serve communities abroad ?
[15:38] blakeeus_: It is not an expectation, but it is valid.
[15:39] dorion: right, so that seems to imply they're open to service being provided remotely.
[15:40] dorion: anyways. another topic could be something eulora2 related.
[15:40] blakeeus_: Yes, I guess so.
[15:40] blakeeus_: Tell me about Eurola2
[15:40] blakeeus_: Like what could I do with it?
[15:42] dorion: eulora2 is a masterclass in economics/applied statistics. on the surface though, it's a computer game. maybe you could do something to show how a game environment can help people learn more efficiently.
[15:42] blakeeus_: This would go under service and creativity?
[15:43] dorion: maybe everything.
[15:43] blakeeus_: True, just thought about that
[15:43] blakeeus_: The thing is that Eurola is not developed fully yet, right?
[15:43] blakeeus_: So the community is very small
[15:44] blakeeus_: And that community is more wise than me, so I am not really helping you out, on the contrary, you are helping me.
[15:44] dorion: say you got a manageable group of 'underprivileged' panamenyos, raised funds to get them computers, got them set up in e2, showed them the ropes. set some learning/acheivement goals and then report back on the results.
[15:45] dorion: by manageable I meant numbers wise. maybe it's 6 or 12 kids.
[15:45] blakeeus_: Uff, it seems complicated. But I would like to explore that idea.
[15:46] blakeeus_: To start off with, I just want to try for my first 3 projects, something more simple, like the blog, cookies, whatever.
[15:46] blakeeus_: I am also new to this so I want to get my feet wet before creating a monstrosity of a project haha
[15:48] dorion: e2 is small for now, but the plan is to grow it into something big. there are wise people involved, but you can leverage them to bounce ideas off of/help guide you. and you'll be helping both the e2 community by getting people using it and collecting feedback and then helping the panama community by educating some people.
[15:49] dorion: yeah, to start, setting up the blog sounds good. whatever you pick, can document your work there and can convert articles into the format your school expects you to upload them in.
[15:50] blakeeus_: Yes, and I find it an amazing idea, but I would like to do 2 or 3 smaller projects before that one
[15:50] blakeeus_: Just to get a feel for CAS
[15:50] dorion: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8835 -- do you upload as pdf ? or what format do they expect ?
[15:50] sourcerer: 2023-08-26 15:28:42 (#jwrd) blakeeus_: since after each one I have to write a 500 word reflection to upload to the academic service we use: ManageBac
[15:50] blakeeus_: No, it is in a text box in the ManageBac app/site
[15:51] dorion: blakeeus_, I think the eulora2 project would probably be more interesting and saleable to the supervisor.
[15:51] blakeeus_: Yes, of course.
[15:52] blakeeus_: But they are not testing my knowledge or skills, they just want us to do good new things in our lives
[15:52] dorion: so you could take the text from the articles you write and paste it into the text box. maybe you'll need to massage the format a bit in the conversion, but that's something you can create a process for.
[15:53] dorion: sure, but you want that knowledge and skills for yourself, right ?
[15:53] blakeeus_: Nono, the I have to upload the reflection, in the text box I can just paste a link.
[15:53] blakeeus_: Yes, I do
[15:54] dorion: there is the school called the Met and then there is the school of life.
[15:55] blakeeus_: Yeah, it is different
[15:55] blakeeus_: Btw, please check whatsapp when you have a moment
[15:56] dorion: either way though, looks like a good opportunity to create the blog. you can report on your activities and services and then it's there and it's yours so can fill it with other things that interest you when you have time for it.
[15:56] blakeeus_: I completely agree
[15:57] dorion: cool, what's the next step then ? getting the blog idea approved by the supervisor to fulfill the creative requirement ?
[15:58] blakeeus_: Yep, I'll confirm that either Monday or Tuesday and I will let you know.
[15:58] dorion: ok. we're good for now then.
[15:59] dorion: check the log as jfw may have some questions/feedback.
[15:59] blakeeus_: Alright, nice chatting and thank you for the visions.
[15:59] blakeeus_: Alright, will do.
[15:59] dorion: btw, did you already forget how to ssh and use the yrc ? ;-p
[15:59] blakeeus_: I believe I still remember
[16:00] blakeeus_: Open terminal -> ssh s7g2 / password -> yrc -> /connect to the channel right?
[16:01] dorion: you already have a yrc running there in the tmux I believe.
[16:01] dorion: blakeeus has maintained the connection here.
[16:01] blakeeus_: Yeah I think so
[16:02] dorion: so when you log into the server, you issue tmux attach.
[16:02] blakeeus_: got it, thank you
[16:02] dorion: alright, have a good one and ttyl.
[16:02] blakeeus_: You as well!
[16:26] dorion: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8785 -- alright, sounds good. are you gonna be staying in CR a while ?
[16:26] sourcerer: 2023-08-25 22:55:30 (#jwrd) whaack: Hey all about to step out but I should be back in Central America within the next 2 1/2 weeks
[16:27] dorion: whaack, did you consider further going ahead w/ the advanced JWRD training ?
[16:45] jfw: in brainstorming for blakeeus, one activity coming to mind that'd be also creative & a service to the panamanian community, that doesn't depend on further development/release of the game, could be translating articles on it into spanish
[16:45] jfw: but the blog sounds like the stronger first step, then you'll have a place to put them!
[16:47] jfw: I wonder, can you fund-raise to support your own creations & activities? :D not like getting a pilot's license would be cheap
[16:49] jfw: and again, we can provide different service levels for blog hosting, up to fully managed so it's little harder than making a wordpress account or gmail or whatever; obviously you learn less & have less control that way but the point is the amount of upfront work can be fit to the available time
[16:51] jfw: then documenting that process, reviewing the service & what you learned would make for interesting article(s) and would be a service, not to "the web community" but specifically the independent publishing community.
[16:56] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8913 - somehow missed stating that I was talking about eulora2 here.
[16:56] sourcerer: 2023-08-26 16:45:16 (#jwrd) jfw: in brainstorming for blakeeus, one activity coming to mind that'd be also creative & a service to the panamanian community, that doesn't depend on further development/release of the game, could be translating articles on it into spanish
[17:02] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8752 - it occurred to me that for balance here I should point out that the very play depicts the speaker as a capricious, indolent, shortsighted loser of a king who sets the realm up to get fucked over for years to come, and his compliance there doesn't even save his own neck in the end.
[17:02] sourcerer: 2023-08-25 17:45:03 (#jwrd) jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8744 - "What you will have I'll give, and willing too, For do we must what force will have us do." - Richard II
[17:27] dorion: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8913 -- yeah, that is a good idea.
[17:27] sourcerer: 2023-08-26 16:45:16 (#jwrd) jfw: in brainstorming for blakeeus, one activity coming to mind that'd be also creative & a service to the panamanian community, that doesn't depend on further development/release of the game, could be translating articles on it into spanish
[17:28] dorion: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8916 -- also a good point.
[17:28] sourcerer: 2023-08-26 16:49:49 (#jwrd) jfw: and again, we can provide different service levels for blog hosting, up to fully managed so it's little harder than making a wordpress account or gmail or whatever; obviously you learn less & have less control that way but the point is the amount of upfront work can be fit to the available time
[17:30] dorion: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8744 -- any theories on the cause behind the warping ?
[17:30] sourcerer: 2023-08-25 17:38:56 (#jwrd) mechs: i know C, C++ best, although been forced by warped markets to do webdev related work(cringe)
[20:01] mechs: i think it's just terrible management, i agree with this article https://unixsheikh.com/articles/a-warning-to-business-owners-and-managers-you-are-a-big-part-of-the-problem.html
[20:14] dorion: blakeeus, fyi I sent our convo up the chain for feedback.
[20:19] dorion: mechs, thanks for the link. I think managers of software projects are downstream in the problem chain from managers of society : http://dorion-mode.com/2023/08/chat-analysis-the-ever-enduring-irc/#footnote_1_2164
[20:20] dorion: now I'm wondering why I included that "all the way down" link there, hm. looks like a mistake. and I'm seeing where I could've included some better references in that footnote.
[21:42] mechs: going offline for the day, have a good one
Day changed to 2023-08-27
[03:56] jfw: doing a lil' diligence on recent history of this APR which is demanded by apache/httpd and no longer included with it in 2.4 ...
[04:01] jfw: under changes for 1.7.1 we see three outright CVEs. In the first, they unhelpfully skip mention that - from what I could tell - the whole of the affected API was only just added in 1.7.0. (Latest httpd requires only 1.4.x, supposedly.) The second is Windows specific. The third was previously fixed in 2017, but fix omitted from 1.7 branch on its
[04:01] jfw: release in 2019, and this was noticed full four years later.
[04:03] jfw: so far it sounds like the proper "user encouragement" is not to "update to this release" but... to never have updated from 1.6.
[04:11] jfw: ah, worse than 'noticed four years later' - fixed in 2021 but not released until 2023.
[04:12] jfw: two of the three releases following 1.7.1 are entirely for correcting regressions.
[04:16] jfw: and with all the other rather user-opaque changes going in, it makes me wish I knew what exactly httpd is using out of this pile, in my actual configuration
Day changed to 2023-08-28
[04:29] sstacks: xz
[04:35] sstacks: gn, i glad you have met mechs
[04:35] sstacks: he is my brother in Christ,we met at local church
[04:37] sstacks: dorion: yes, he is indeed a techie guy..he came over to he apt few months ago and he was cought by the thinkpads, so i confessed you guys were my friends, hahahha
[04:39] sstacks: hopefully you guys can work together somehow
[16:16] dorion: sstacks, confessed, lol. as if it's a sin to be friends with us.
[17:59] sstacks: dorion: hahaha! More like sharing something too valuable with someone else.. thats the sense i ment to communicate !
[19:03] sstacks: \
[19:08] dorion: well, sounds like mechs might have an idea of how to use it for good.
[19:09] dorion: sstacks, and what's this ? mr. martketing thinks jwrd should be all occult ? ;-p
[19:11] dorion: sstacks, now that you've taken the training, I'd like to chat sometime about your thoughts on improving our marketing.. well, more distribution than marketing.
Day changed to 2023-08-29
[03:17] caai: (I, IV, vii, iii) | What comes next in this sequence?
[13:31] sstacks: dorion: interesting article. I can agree that "marketing" in its most popularly used form is, in fact, mind rape. In the sense that you can be led to adopt an idea that was not there before and that you would not have conceived in the first place if it were not for the input of the marketing specialist (rapist).
[13:34] sstacks: But i think theres a legitimate use in the advertising activity ("go public" activity)if marketing (create, communicate ideas to meet a market organic need). The problem is the abscence of true professional ethics. Probably PART of this problem is the modern conceptions of "marketing" where Kotler is taken as a reference and considered "father". For him, marketin implies "creating" a need in the
[13:34] sstacks: market instead of simply "serving" an organic need
[13:39] sstacks: To answer the question. Of course, we can see how to best communicate and serve this training. During this week I can meditate about this and we can arrange a lunch for next week. It would be useful to have jfw participaction as well.
[15:12] jfw: welcome back caai
[15:12] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8951 - is the change of case significant?
[15:12] sourcerer: 2023-08-29 03:17:39 (#jwrd) caai: (I, IV, vii, iii) | What comes next in this sequence?
[19:34] caai: jfw: yes, the change of case is significant
[19:36] caai: jfw: how have you been?
[20:06] jfw: caai: well, there's problems to deal with, as there always are; but I've been of reasonable good health & cheer
[20:08] jfw: caai: I haven't had a clue yet as to your sequence, do I get 20 guesses or something?
Day changed to 2023-08-30
[02:56] whaack: jfw: I can give you a hint. The capitalization is related to an emotion
[03:38] dorion: whaack, if you know enough to give hints, why don't you go ahead and solve it ?
[03:39] whaack: I sent caai my answer in a private message just as I gave a hint
[03:41] whaack: I'm not actually sure I know the answer though. But I am pretty damn positive I know why the capitalization is there
[13:54] jfw: I know at least what the sequence represents now. I'd say "related to an emotion" is kinda misleading as a hint but I could see how a more precise word choice might make it too obvious. another hint then is that there's a reason caai would come up with this and whaack would get it first.
[15:12] caai: Public chat for clients, prospects, suppliers, partners and friends of JWRD Computing | Logs @ http://jfxpt.com/category/jwrd-logs/ | Office hours: Thursdays @ 21 UTC
[15:12] caai: yrc |02:16:11 caai!~caai@42883074 joins #jwrd
[15:12] caai: =freenode |02:16:11 s7g3.jwrd.net sets topic to Public chat for clients, prospects, suppliers, partners and friends of JWRD Computing | Logs @ http://jfxpt.com/category/jwrd-logs/ | Office hours: Thursdays @ 21 UTC
[15:12] caai: * #jwrd |02:16:11 <s7g3.jwrd.net> NAMES in #jwrd: caai damaris xissburg sstacks blakeeus btcexplorer sourcerer dorion @jfw
[15:12] caai: - whaack |02:16:11 <s7g3.jwrd.net> end NAMES in #jwrd
[15:12] caai: |03:08:40 xissburg!~xissburg@42883074 quits ["Lost terminal"]
[15:12] caai: |03:16:39 <caai> (I, IV, vii, iii) | What comes next in this sequence?
[15:12] caai: |13:30:45 <sstacks> dorion: interesting article. I can agree that "marketing" in its most popularly used form is, in fact, mind rape. In the sense that you can be led to adopt an idea that was not there before and that you would not have conceived in the first place if it were not for the input of
[15:12] caai: |the marketing specialist (rapist).
[15:12] caai: |13:33:18 <sstacks> But i think theres a legitimate use in the advertising activity ("go public" activity)if marketing (create, communicate ideas to meet a market organic need). The problem is the abscence of true professional ethics. Probably PART of this problem is the modern conceptions of
[15:12] caai: |"marketing" where Kotler is taken as a reference and considered "father". For him, marketin implies "creating" a need in the
[15:12] caai: |13:33:18 <sstacks> market instead of simply "serving" an organic need
[15:12] caai: |13:38:10 <sstacks> To answer the question. Of course, we can see how to best communicate and serve this training. During this week I can meditate about this and we can arrange a lunch for next week. It would be useful to have jfw participaction as well.
[15:12] caai: |14:27:09 xissburg!~xissburg@42883074 joins #jwrd
[15:12] caai: |15:11:19 <jfw> welcome back caai
[15:12] caai: |15:11:45 <jfw> http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8951 - is the change of case significant?
[15:12] sourcerer: 2023-08-29 03:17:39 (#jwrd) caai: (I, IV, vii, iii) | What comes next in this sequence?
[15:12] caai: |15:11:45 <sourcerer> 2023-08-29 03:17:39 (#jwrd) caai: (I, IV, vii, iii) | What comes next in this sequence?
[15:12] caai: |19:33:27 <caai> jfw: yes, the change of case is significant
[15:12] caai: |19:35:16 <caai> jfw: how have you been?
[15:12] caai: |20:05:24 <jfw> caai: well, there's problems to deal with, as there always are; but I've been of reasonable good health & cheer
[15:12] caai: |20:07:08 <jfw> caai: I haven't had a clue yet as to your sequence, do I get 20 guesses or something?
[15:12] caai: |02:07:52 xissburg!~xissburg@42883074 quits ["Lost terminal"]
[15:12] caai: |02:53:39 whaack!~whaack2@42883074 joins #jwrd
[15:12] caai: |02:55:22 <whaack> jfw: I can give you a hint. The capitalization is related to an emotion
[15:12] caai: |03:37:49 <dorion> whaack, if you know enough to give hints, why don't you go ahead and solve it ?
[15:12] caai: |03:38:40 <whaack> I sent caai my answer in a private message just as I gave a hint
[15:12] caai: |03:39:59 <whaack> I'm not actually sure I know the answer though. But I am pretty damn positive I know why the capitalization is there
[15:12] caai: |04:24:10 whaack!~whaack2@42883074 quits [Client closed connection]
[15:12] caai: |13:53:55 <jfw> I know at least what the sequence represents now. I'd say "related to an emotion" is kinda misleading as a hint but I could see how a more precise word choice might make it too obvious. another hint then is that there's a reason caai would come up with this and whaack would get it
[15:12] caai: |first.
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: |
[15:12] caai: caai@freenode | #jwrd | ping: 0.166
[15:17] caai: > sorry about that. I copied a message (jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8961) from the website, then came to yrc and presses SHIFT + INSERT
[15:17] jfw: oof, the all-text pasted screenshot
[15:18] jfw: let's try: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#8961
[15:18] sourcerer: 2023-08-29 20:06:25 (#jwrd) jfw: caai: well, there's problems to deal with, as there always are; but I've been of reasonable good health & cheer
[15:18] caai: seems like it worked before without that effect
[15:19] caai: yes, life and its never ending problems to solve
[15:19] caai: are you solving any interesting problems?
[15:19] caai: i am sure you are
[15:24] caai: in regards to the 'riddle'. it is a chord sequence. it is the driving chord sequence for all music and it ends with a cadence. Therefore, (I, IV, vii, iii, ?, ii, V, I)
[15:37] jfw: caai: moving in fourths, the missing one would be vi, dunno about the major vs minor pattern though.
[15:38] jfw: caai: mostly annoying problems at the moment; communicating with ISP sales and support is punishment for grave sins of some sort I'm certain.
[15:38] caai: jfw: you are correct.
[15:39] caai: jfw: i see. third party provider problems
[15:40] jfw: on the bright side, we've got the webmail stack finally coming together. which also involves third party problems but at least ones we have more power over.
[15:41] caai: good!
[15:41] jfw: how about you?
[15:41] caai: is it possible to delete the mess i created?
[15:42] caai: or is that not irc protocol?
[15:42] jfw: only from our own respective delusions i.e. editing our own copies of the logs. and there's various others in the channel now.
[15:43] caai: i understand
[15:43] jfw: what might have happened was if you selected text in the terminal by mistake. there's two types of clipboards in the X11 system, "clipboard" and "selection"
[15:44] jfw: ctrl-c from firefox should generally hit both. but if you select something, that'll overwrite it. and the middle-click or shift-ins in xterm draws from the 'selection'.
[15:45] caai: alright
[15:46] caai: i will do some testing via a personal message for practice 'off stage'.
[15:46] jfw: unfortunately the terminal protocol doesn't provide a reliable way for programs such as yrc to distinguish a large paste from normal keyboard input. some irc clients try to do so anyway, using timing or something like that.
[15:47] caai: i am doing well. pushing everyday to accomplish my goals and overcome internal resistance
[15:48] caai: i finished the first movement of a piano sonata a few weeks ago. i am working on the second movement now.
[15:49] jfw: hey, nice.
[15:50] jfw: http://trilema.com/2019/forum-logs-for-31-mar-2014/#1181815 for a high-profile historical pastefail, btw
[15:50] caai: finished the erd/schema for the entire company. now i am learning python to create a GUI
[15:50] jfw: pretty sure there's passwords getting pasted at various points too
[15:51] jfw: like a desktop toolkit based GUI or web interface or what?
[15:54] caai: i will check that out. i decided to focus on tkinter first. after that, i will most likely learn django.
[15:55] caai: a web interface is the ultimate goal, but i see many uses for a desktop toolkit and it is useful for learning as a first step
[16:06] jfw: tkinter I have not used; django and flask I have dabbled in; I find they bring significant additional complexity into the system. so as to provide "easy" shortcuts to common tasks, to be sure, probably why they're popular lately and newbies are often pushed in that direction. the more traditional choice for gluing a web server to a database is PHP.
[17:38] caai: with that said, in addition to tkinter being the de facto GUI package, i decided to learn it because of its simplicity and ease of use. i succeeded in creating a simple data entry form for a basic database after a small amount of time.
[17:40] caai: i did not know that about flask/django. do you have any recommendations for learning php, aside from the standard documentation?
[17:41] caai: not to say that flask/django are 100% out, but, it appears as though i should learn more about php
[18:14] jfw: Gott sei dank : one of our two problem ISPs has fallen in line and our customer at last has an actual static IP, on fiber, on premises. That clears a storm cloud that's been hanging over the whole project for a year or two and most acutely over me for three weeks.
[18:16] jfw: all along they'd been publishing inconsistent / duplicate BGP routes. just as I told them.
[18:17] jfw: "all along" as in the past month. before that it was a Comcast cable connection which couldn't furnish a static IP at all except by some kinda weird tunneling on their special custom CPE router.
[18:25] jfw: caai: that's nice to hear re tkinter, I recall it's the default option coming with python at least in some installations.
[18:41] jfw: caai: hm, I'm not too sure re learning PHP, it's been quite a while. and one thing to watch out for is they almost never maintain compatibility between releases. like, the basics pretty much remain but new stuff gets added, old stuff tweaked or removed or saddled with 'deprecation warnings', so if you develop for new versions you're likely to end up with something that won't work on older servers.
[18:41] jfw: I'd aim to target php 5.3 or 5.4, it's the "end of an era" version from before certain advances in the decay of the wider environment, and it's what we're supporting.
[18:43] jfw: I have the documentation frozen for that version.
[18:43] jfw: on the python side the comparable target would be 2.7.
[19:07] jfw: http://trilema.com/2020/forum-logs-for-14-aug-2019/#2548328 is the oracle of romaha's take on web app infrastructure.
[19:11] jfw: php having been the de facto standard for messing about with webstuff for so long, there's large volumes of low quality information about it easily accessible online. though I expect the 'generative AI' will be putting ~everything in that category soon enough
[19:13] jfw: the upside though is that you don't need any kind of 'frameworks' or 'wrappers' or 'abstraction layers' or whatnot - everything for taking some html and parameterizing parts of it from a database query is included out of the box.
[19:20] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2023/jwrd-logs-for-Aug-2023/#9089 - here I meant 5.6, not 5.4, though I guess it's all close enough. CentOS 6 has 5.3.3; Gales has 5.6.
[19:20] sourcerer: 2023-08-30 18:41:47 (#jwrd) jfw: I'd aim to target php 5.3 or 5.4, it's the "end of an era" version from before certain advances in the decay of the wider environment, and it's what we're supporting.
[19:26] jfw: caai: but as far as where to start from zero, you could probably do worse than w3schools. though I'm disagreeing with them right off the bat that you "should already know" CSS and JavaScript. HTML is enough.
Day changed to 2023-08-31
[18:50] caai: jfw: yes, i have enjoyed learning tkinter. to my understanding, tkinter has been a part of the python standard library since the release of python version 1.1 in 1994.
[18:56] caai: jfw: thank you for outlining this information about php in detail. this will assist me in futher investigation. question: as seen via the trilema link, mp made an unambigous case for the lamp stack; very valuable information. the la_p part aligns with what i have learned up until this point (which is not much), however, do you still consider mysql to be the best option?
[18:58] caai: was not mysql integrated into the lamp stack before oracle acquired it, and does said change of ownership compromise them in any way? is there no case to be made for posgres?
[19:00] caai: postgres*
[19:01] jfw: caai: a perhaps more subtle aspect of his point is that whatever you build on linux, it's going to end up with the same "shape" as LAMP - basically being the same thing by another name and possibly more rough edges, missing pieces & bloat
[19:01] jfw: so he's not exactly saying "thou shalt not use postgres" or even python
[19:02] jfw: more, use what best fits your actual business needs, only don't think you're thereby special and better and different
[19:03] jfw: as techies are wont to feel from using python / whatever alternative stack, as PHP has its share of annoyances and is somewhat reviled among programmers.
[19:05] jfw: mysql and postgres are both large, complex and capable systems; in earlier times, each had distinct advantages over the other in particular aspects but over time they've expanded and caught up, it's quite the coke vs pepsi indeed. however because they are complex, it isn't therefore a tossup; rather it mostly comes down to the relative strengths of people you might want to work with.
[19:06] jfw: mysql was bought by Sun which was then bought by Oracle, the technical implications there are probably just an acceleration of the bloat factor over time.
[19:07] jfw: the most significant change to the software that I can recall was the addition/integration of the InnoDB storage engine (basically a whole separate RDBMS in its own right), which was a company also bought by Oracle, but the code came in before the MySQL aquisition.
[19:13] jfw: in other words, oracle was already influencing mysql prior to buying it, and they haven't obviously derailed it since, to my knowledge. however there was a split with one of the original mysql founders who went on to start a fork called MariaDB.
[19:14] jfw: TMSR had people using both MySQL and Postgres, as well as python, php and even common lisp for doing web stuff. I've worked with both to some degree as well as sqlite, but with JWRD we're aiming to stay focused on MySQL.
[19:18] jfw: "somewhat reviled" now there's a peculiarly hedged phrase, it would seem. I'd say PHP doesn't get quite as much hate as some older things like BASIC or COBOL.
[19:19] jfw: caai: you're quite welcome btw. and what draws you most toward postgres?