Day changed to 2025-11-03
[14:47] nekoluce: aloha or hello in hawaian
[14:47] nekoluce: happy holidays
[14:47] nekoluce: it is independence day
[14:48] nekoluce: mahalo thank you !
[15:48] jfw: "meet the new boss day"
[16:16] dorion: lolz
Day changed to 2025-11-09
[17:55] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2025/october-busyboxing-with-grep-and-other-bug-fixes/
[19:53] lru: sweet... were those patches all sent upstream? I hope they were welcomed with open arms
[22:47] jfw: thanks lru. well, they're published, nothing stopping anyone from reading or using them. as far as actively pushing them, I'm not sure who you have in mind exactly as that "upstream" but I don't believe they have any representation in the WoT; just having a domain name doesn't count for much around here. as far as Gales is concerned, we are the upstream; like, we do use existing software when it
[22:47] jfw: solves a need, but unlike its prior developers in general, we then take actual responsibility for it, which means for one thing we don't blindly follow updates or whatever.
[22:48] jfw: there was an invitation to collaborate after last year's tar patches, which nobody took me up on.
[22:54] jfw: for busybox in particular, a bunch of people have had their hands on it or in it over the years but I'm not seeing much in the way of leadership worth engaging. not that somebody can't try, if they like.
Day changed to 2025-11-10
[09:38] lru: when you say "we don't blindly follow updates" does that mean you don't follow, for example, busybox updates at all, or that you review each release that comes out and snag the good parts for Gales?
[19:05] jfw: lru: either way could be a valid approach; certainly it makes sense to avoid redoing what others have already done, to the extent that their "doing" doesn't end up bringing in even more or worse costs (as often happens). there's a difference though between looking at what's around in the world, based on some choice of filters which can be adjusted with experience, and committing to review every
[19:05] jfw: piece of slop that matches a particular regex pattern. in any case it's a call to be made by someone committed to doing the work.
[19:07] jfw: what's behind the question, is digging for gold in the busybox list something that sounds of interest to you? it sounds like it could be useful
[20:39] lru: jfw: probably 2 reasons behind the question... 1 being that discounting a central domain name for a project like busybox is shortsighted... they probably don't know your WoT exists, but the maintainer does have a key, and signs the released software with it, so they at least take responsibility for secure distribution. Of the many project upstreams that are out there, busybox seems one of the smarter and
[20:39] lru: conservative ones, valuing things like small programs that use less memory. I also think there is value in having a well known place that users of a particular piece of software can come to, for communication of issues, bugs, security, etc.
[20:42] lru: you make good points that there is a limit to what people can do with available time, and tracking various upstream code may be useful, but also may not survive the priority checklist...on the other hand, you have already gone to the effort of creating patches for the issues you found, and emailing them a link would be useful to others, just as the security corrections of the past which made it into the version
[20:43] lru: you use has been useful to you
[20:43] lru: as for reason #2, if you don't want to send them upstream, do you mind if I do? I doubt I'll spend much time, but I think they should be made aware of their existance
[20:45] lru: and if the answer is yes, which version of busybox are those patches against?
[20:46] lru: er, if the answer is "I don't mind" lol
[21:05] jfw: lru, ahem, have you appointed yourself my eye doctor now?
[21:07] jfw: there's a number of words for giving advice to the players while not having skin in the game, none of them very flattering
[21:11] jfw: you're entitled to your evaluations, "busybox is central" or whatever; I'm not obliged to share them
[21:13] jfw: the WoT doesn't come out of nowhere. I suppose they also happened to not know bitcoin or tmsr existed
[21:14] jfw: the indians also didn't know the europeans existed
[21:15] jfw: but as I mentioned, I don't mind your talking to them
[21:15] sourcerer: 2025-11-09 22:54:06 (#jwrd) jfw: for busybox in particular, a bunch of people have had their hands on it or in it over the years but I'm not seeing much in the way of leadership worth engaging. not that somebody can't try, if they like.
[21:28] lru: I'm just trying to point out that if I found a backdoor in Gales linux and posted a patch on nobody-reads-this-blog.com, I haven't really helped you if you never hear about it
[21:31] jfw: not reading fixpoint isn't a free option, what can I say
[21:38] jfw: the point isn't to pick on busybox or anyone in particular; it's that the cool people are over here, if you want some then you have to go where they are, learn of their customs & etiquette, they're not delivering it to your local TV set
[22:03] lru: what version of busybox are your patches based on?
[22:11] lru: 1.24.2?
Day changed to 2025-11-11
[02:32] jfw: approximately. http://jfxpt.com/code/os/gales/gales-linux-24.tar.gz would be the exact antecedent
[02:42] jfw: the initial release referenced an untouched busybox tarball, shipped separately (via the gales mirror), and applied a few patches on it; after that I imported the code directly into the gales repository, making it easier to handle.
[12:01] lru: FYI, in applying patches from http://jfxpt.com/code/os/busybox/extraction-regrind/ to busybox-1.24.2, they all apply successfully except 16-same-owner-complementary-options.patch
[12:19] lru: is the gales repository available in repository form, or only release tarballs?
[12:36] lru: jfw: I apologise for trying to tell you what to do with your time. Your time is your own. While I still see value in project upstreams, I see now that's not what you're doing here, as all your code is either custom, or a fork of any particular upstream they may have come from. When I read "busybox" on your blog, I thought it was the same as upstream, but I should read it as "Gales busybox", a different
[12:36] lru: product.
[15:48] jfw: tarballs only atm. we're not opposed to sharing more but 1) it would be using VaMP not git or whatever, which is currently troublesome because it doesn't yet run on Gales for lack of a working Ada compiler build, and 2) it hasn't yet been necessary, for lack of collaborators.
[15:53] jfw: yeah, gales busybox, but that's not a situation that's unique to me or anything; life grows in trees, not straight lines, and you seem to try to force this simplifying model ala "busybox is this one thing here, as decreed by this state-issued identity" onto a reality that doesn't really accomodate it
[16:08] jfw: also worth noting that we do recognize & collaborate with other upstreams, such as Diana Coman on GNAT, VaMP and Eulora2 though as noted those don't yet fit into Gales
[16:36] lru: you keep suggesting that I'm in love with the state :-) it's not the state I'm valuing, it's the people involved in a single identifiable project....various things go into identifying that project... including domains, GPG keys, mailing list activity, recognized sources that multiple distros use, etc.
[16:40] lru: the name being a big one too
[16:40] lru: and search engine results
[16:41] lru: "Gales linux" wins on the search engine front even without a matching domain name
[17:15] jfw: before the discovery of soap, you might pass for an obstetrician without washing your hands, at least in the eyes of the onlookers. once hygiene is understood, the world is different, and should you continue to carry on as if nothing happened then what you're doing is not called practicing medicine but being a quack and a scoundrel, and nobody cares how much good work you did and recognition you
[17:15] jfw: had in the past. today, the WoT exists, it's amply demonstrated as the fundament of economy and civil society, and if you're not using it then you're a nonperson at best, nobody cares about your status among the other monkeys. even should the planet be overrun by monkeys. it's that simple.
[17:15] jfw: "search engine results", you gotta be kidding me.
[17:25] lru: how many keys are in the WoT?
[17:37] lru: anyway.... disregard that... I don't want to fight over the WoT, which I already like, I just don't hold it in as high regard I guess... I don't want to fight, and yet when I try to explain myself, it seems to aggravate instead of elevate
[17:39] lru: I'll move along. Good luck on your project.
[23:37] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2025/servers-by-the-slice-pricing-and-terms-for-vps-hosting-at-jwrd/
[23:39] jfw: !wrated lru
[23:39] wotbot: jfw has not rated lru.
[23:43] jfw: !w rate lru -1 "Learning is not compulsory. Neither is survival." And if this WoT thingee is just a nice-to-have, then this rating won't hurt a bit.
[23:43] wotbot: jfw: get your OTP: http://jfxpt.com/paste/58i32dzt7t
[23:45] jfw: !w rated dorion
[23:45] wotbot: jfw has not rated dorion.
[23:46] jfw: !w rate dorion 7 long time friend, jwrd strategist in chief and sales, dorion-mode.com
[23:46] wotbot: jfw: get your OTP: http://jfxpt.com/paste/zsgwyw5n7k
[23:46] jfw: !w rated nekoluce
[23:46] wotbot: jfw: error: target 'nekoluce' does not have a key registered.
[23:46] jfw: !w rated sstacks
[23:46] wotbot: jfw: error: target 'sstacks' does not have a key registered.
[23:47] jfw: !w rated whaack
[23:47] wotbot: jfw: error: target 'whaack' does not have a key registered.
[23:47] jfw: !w key bob
[23:47] wotbot: No key registered for name bob.
[23:48] jfw: !w key caai
[23:48] wotbot: No key registered for name caai.
[23:48] jfw: !w rated xissburg
[23:48] wotbot: jfw has not rated xissburg.
[23:51] jfw: !w rate xissburg 2 software guy from brazil with a cool car
[23:51] wotbot: jfw: get your OTP: http://jfxpt.com/paste/xkw5iaryr3
Day changed to 2025-11-12
[00:19] jfw: !w v e78fefb6f233e5f637d94ca34d7c5300
[00:19] wotbot: jfw rated lru -1 with comment: "Learning is not compulsory. Neither is survival." And if this WoT thingee is just a nice-to-have, then this rating won't hurt a bit.
[00:19] jfw: !w v f8de67cce111272f0eef89b3d0cb8159
[00:19] wotbot: jfw rated dorion 7 with comment: long time friend, jwrd strategist in chief and sales, dorion-mode.com
[00:20] jfw: !w v b7f9e7fef1eda07f8178ad30e6fe7786
[00:20] wotbot: jfw rated xissburg 2 with comment: software guy from brazil with a cool car
[00:20] jfw: aah, feels good to work the ol' process.
Day changed to 2025-11-17
[13:08] nekoluce: HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO THE PRETTIES BOY EVER
Day changed to 2025-11-20
[18:13] jfw: ftr, my btc nodes are all stuck over 3 hours now at block 924436, with newly connecting peers showing noticeable clustering at even lower heights e.g. a lot at 923850
[18:14] jfw: now 923851, such progress
Day changed to 2025-11-21
[01:26] jfw: and they're back to life now.
Day changed to 2025-11-22
[22:56] jfw: dorion: there going to be any dorion-mode output in y2025? maybe the WoT, maybe bitcoin dev roadmap, maybe even the fabled hunting article?
Day changed to 2025-11-25
[16:58] dorion: jfw, yeah, multiple, thanks for the poke.
[17:20] caai: dorion, what's good up there?
[14:47] nekoluce: aloha or hello in hawaian
[14:47] nekoluce: happy holidays
[14:47] nekoluce: it is independence day
[14:48] nekoluce: mahalo thank you !
[15:48] jfw: "meet the new boss day"
[16:16] dorion: lolz
Day changed to 2025-11-09
[17:55] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2025/october-busyboxing-with-grep-and-other-bug-fixes/
[19:53] lru: sweet... were those patches all sent upstream? I hope they were welcomed with open arms
[22:47] jfw: thanks lru. well, they're published, nothing stopping anyone from reading or using them. as far as actively pushing them, I'm not sure who you have in mind exactly as that "upstream" but I don't believe they have any representation in the WoT; just having a domain name doesn't count for much around here. as far as Gales is concerned, we are the upstream; like, we do use existing software when it
[22:47] jfw: solves a need, but unlike its prior developers in general, we then take actual responsibility for it, which means for one thing we don't blindly follow updates or whatever.
[22:48] jfw: there was an invitation to collaborate after last year's tar patches, which nobody took me up on.
[22:54] jfw: for busybox in particular, a bunch of people have had their hands on it or in it over the years but I'm not seeing much in the way of leadership worth engaging. not that somebody can't try, if they like.
Day changed to 2025-11-10
[09:38] lru: when you say "we don't blindly follow updates" does that mean you don't follow, for example, busybox updates at all, or that you review each release that comes out and snag the good parts for Gales?
[19:05] jfw: lru: either way could be a valid approach; certainly it makes sense to avoid redoing what others have already done, to the extent that their "doing" doesn't end up bringing in even more or worse costs (as often happens). there's a difference though between looking at what's around in the world, based on some choice of filters which can be adjusted with experience, and committing to review every
[19:05] jfw: piece of slop that matches a particular regex pattern. in any case it's a call to be made by someone committed to doing the work.
[19:07] jfw: what's behind the question, is digging for gold in the busybox list something that sounds of interest to you? it sounds like it could be useful
[20:39] lru: jfw: probably 2 reasons behind the question... 1 being that discounting a central domain name for a project like busybox is shortsighted... they probably don't know your WoT exists, but the maintainer does have a key, and signs the released software with it, so they at least take responsibility for secure distribution. Of the many project upstreams that are out there, busybox seems one of the smarter and
[20:39] lru: conservative ones, valuing things like small programs that use less memory. I also think there is value in having a well known place that users of a particular piece of software can come to, for communication of issues, bugs, security, etc.
[20:42] lru: you make good points that there is a limit to what people can do with available time, and tracking various upstream code may be useful, but also may not survive the priority checklist...on the other hand, you have already gone to the effort of creating patches for the issues you found, and emailing them a link would be useful to others, just as the security corrections of the past which made it into the version
[20:43] lru: you use has been useful to you
[20:43] lru: as for reason #2, if you don't want to send them upstream, do you mind if I do? I doubt I'll spend much time, but I think they should be made aware of their existance
[20:45] lru: and if the answer is yes, which version of busybox are those patches against?
[20:46] lru: er, if the answer is "I don't mind" lol
[21:05] jfw: lru, ahem, have you appointed yourself my eye doctor now?
[21:07] jfw: there's a number of words for giving advice to the players while not having skin in the game, none of them very flattering
[21:11] jfw: you're entitled to your evaluations, "busybox is central" or whatever; I'm not obliged to share them
[21:13] jfw: the WoT doesn't come out of nowhere. I suppose they also happened to not know bitcoin or tmsr existed
[21:14] jfw: the indians also didn't know the europeans existed
[21:15] jfw: but as I mentioned, I don't mind your talking to them
[21:15] sourcerer: 2025-11-09 22:54:06 (#jwrd) jfw: for busybox in particular, a bunch of people have had their hands on it or in it over the years but I'm not seeing much in the way of leadership worth engaging. not that somebody can't try, if they like.
[21:28] lru: I'm just trying to point out that if I found a backdoor in Gales linux and posted a patch on nobody-reads-this-blog.com, I haven't really helped you if you never hear about it
[21:31] jfw: not reading fixpoint isn't a free option, what can I say
[21:38] jfw: the point isn't to pick on busybox or anyone in particular; it's that the cool people are over here, if you want some then you have to go where they are, learn of their customs & etiquette, they're not delivering it to your local TV set
[22:03] lru: what version of busybox are your patches based on?
[22:11] lru: 1.24.2?
Day changed to 2025-11-11
[02:32] jfw: approximately. http://jfxpt.com/code/os/gales/gales-linux-24.tar.gz would be the exact antecedent
[02:42] jfw: the initial release referenced an untouched busybox tarball, shipped separately (via the gales mirror), and applied a few patches on it; after that I imported the code directly into the gales repository, making it easier to handle.
[12:01] lru: FYI, in applying patches from http://jfxpt.com/code/os/busybox/extraction-regrind/ to busybox-1.24.2, they all apply successfully except 16-same-owner-complementary-options.patch
[12:19] lru: is the gales repository available in repository form, or only release tarballs?
[12:36] lru: jfw: I apologise for trying to tell you what to do with your time. Your time is your own. While I still see value in project upstreams, I see now that's not what you're doing here, as all your code is either custom, or a fork of any particular upstream they may have come from. When I read "busybox" on your blog, I thought it was the same as upstream, but I should read it as "Gales busybox", a different
[12:36] lru: product.
[15:48] jfw: tarballs only atm. we're not opposed to sharing more but 1) it would be using VaMP not git or whatever, which is currently troublesome because it doesn't yet run on Gales for lack of a working Ada compiler build, and 2) it hasn't yet been necessary, for lack of collaborators.
[15:53] jfw: yeah, gales busybox, but that's not a situation that's unique to me or anything; life grows in trees, not straight lines, and you seem to try to force this simplifying model ala "busybox is this one thing here, as decreed by this state-issued identity" onto a reality that doesn't really accomodate it
[16:08] jfw: also worth noting that we do recognize & collaborate with other upstreams, such as Diana Coman on GNAT, VaMP and Eulora2 though as noted those don't yet fit into Gales
[16:36] lru: you keep suggesting that I'm in love with the state :-) it's not the state I'm valuing, it's the people involved in a single identifiable project....various things go into identifying that project... including domains, GPG keys, mailing list activity, recognized sources that multiple distros use, etc.
[16:40] lru: the name being a big one too
[16:40] lru: and search engine results
[16:41] lru: "Gales linux" wins on the search engine front even without a matching domain name
[17:15] jfw: before the discovery of soap, you might pass for an obstetrician without washing your hands, at least in the eyes of the onlookers. once hygiene is understood, the world is different, and should you continue to carry on as if nothing happened then what you're doing is not called practicing medicine but being a quack and a scoundrel, and nobody cares how much good work you did and recognition you
[17:15] jfw: had in the past. today, the WoT exists, it's amply demonstrated as the fundament of economy and civil society, and if you're not using it then you're a nonperson at best, nobody cares about your status among the other monkeys. even should the planet be overrun by monkeys. it's that simple.
[17:15] jfw: "search engine results", you gotta be kidding me.
[17:25] lru: how many keys are in the WoT?
[17:37] lru: anyway.... disregard that... I don't want to fight over the WoT, which I already like, I just don't hold it in as high regard I guess... I don't want to fight, and yet when I try to explain myself, it seems to aggravate instead of elevate
[17:39] lru: I'll move along. Good luck on your project.
[23:37] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2025/servers-by-the-slice-pricing-and-terms-for-vps-hosting-at-jwrd/
[23:39] jfw: !wrated lru
[23:39] wotbot: jfw has not rated lru.
[23:43] jfw: !w rate lru -1 "Learning is not compulsory. Neither is survival." And if this WoT thingee is just a nice-to-have, then this rating won't hurt a bit.
[23:43] wotbot: jfw: get your OTP: http://jfxpt.com/paste/58i32dzt7t
[23:45] jfw: !w rated dorion
[23:45] wotbot: jfw has not rated dorion.
[23:46] jfw: !w rate dorion 7 long time friend, jwrd strategist in chief and sales, dorion-mode.com
[23:46] wotbot: jfw: get your OTP: http://jfxpt.com/paste/zsgwyw5n7k
[23:46] jfw: !w rated nekoluce
[23:46] wotbot: jfw: error: target 'nekoluce' does not have a key registered.
[23:46] jfw: !w rated sstacks
[23:46] wotbot: jfw: error: target 'sstacks' does not have a key registered.
[23:47] jfw: !w rated whaack
[23:47] wotbot: jfw: error: target 'whaack' does not have a key registered.
[23:47] jfw: !w key bob
[23:47] wotbot: No key registered for name bob.
[23:48] jfw: !w key caai
[23:48] wotbot: No key registered for name caai.
[23:48] jfw: !w rated xissburg
[23:48] wotbot: jfw has not rated xissburg.
[23:51] jfw: !w rate xissburg 2 software guy from brazil with a cool car
[23:51] wotbot: jfw: get your OTP: http://jfxpt.com/paste/xkw5iaryr3
Day changed to 2025-11-12
[00:19] jfw: !w v e78fefb6f233e5f637d94ca34d7c5300
[00:19] wotbot: jfw rated lru -1 with comment: "Learning is not compulsory. Neither is survival." And if this WoT thingee is just a nice-to-have, then this rating won't hurt a bit.
[00:19] jfw: !w v f8de67cce111272f0eef89b3d0cb8159
[00:19] wotbot: jfw rated dorion 7 with comment: long time friend, jwrd strategist in chief and sales, dorion-mode.com
[00:20] jfw: !w v b7f9e7fef1eda07f8178ad30e6fe7786
[00:20] wotbot: jfw rated xissburg 2 with comment: software guy from brazil with a cool car
[00:20] jfw: aah, feels good to work the ol' process.
Day changed to 2025-11-17
[13:08] nekoluce: HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO THE PRETTIES BOY EVER
Day changed to 2025-11-20
[18:13] jfw: ftr, my btc nodes are all stuck over 3 hours now at block 924436, with newly connecting peers showing noticeable clustering at even lower heights e.g. a lot at 923850
[18:14] jfw: now 923851, such progress
Day changed to 2025-11-21
[01:26] jfw: and they're back to life now.
Day changed to 2025-11-22
[22:56] jfw: dorion: there going to be any dorion-mode output in y2025? maybe the WoT, maybe bitcoin dev roadmap, maybe even the fabled hunting article?
Day changed to 2025-11-25
[16:58] dorion: jfw, yeah, multiple, thanks for the poke.
[17:20] caai: dorion, what's good up there?
yep new boss day xD
Comment by Luz — 2025-11-03 @ 16:05