Day changed to 2025-01-01
[16:48] nekoluce: Happy new year!
[18:13] jfw: happy new year all, looks like nekoluce gets the "first post"
[18:26] nekoluce: first post first post !! huh yeah !
Day changed to 2025-01-02
[19:24] jfw: whaack or others - know any ways to grab individual items from annas-archive.org without submitting to browser challenge / cloudflare honeypot? pretty sad situation given their "open source & data" claims and observation of the threat from others' anti-scraping hijinks
[19:25] jfw: they do link to a torrent but in this case it's like a 4TB tar file, no way to get just the intended item.
[22:11] nekoluce: bellow slow options there is another option where you can not use a captcha
[22:11] nekoluce: but instead you have to use a waiting list
[22:12] nekoluce: a minute or two
[22:13] jfw: yeah that one didn't work, I'll illustrate...
[22:13] jfw: well it says right there in the parentheses, "might require browser verification"
[22:14] nekoluce: no dont take that one
[22:15] nekoluce: Option #3: Slow Partner Server #3 (no waitlist, but can be very slow) this one
[22:16] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/aa-says-take-your-pills.png
[22:16] jfw: same thing there
[22:16] nekoluce: oh
[22:17] nekoluce: so only option becoming a member
[22:17] nekoluce: and zlibrary ?
[22:17] nekoluce: or the russian one ?
[22:17] jfw: where is zlibrary these days? I recall there was an effort to shut it down
[22:18] nekoluce: https://www.rsl.ru/en/funds/
[22:18] nekoluce: z library in tor
[22:19] nekoluce: and in telegram
[22:19] nekoluce: i know you wont use telegram yet tor in the computer is worth trying ?
[22:20] jfw: oh like on a hidden service?
[22:20] nekoluce: yes
[22:21] nekoluce: you know there is telegram for computer as well maybe you can use it there ?
[22:21] nekoluce: to connect both and have zlibrary
[22:22] jfw: iirc the problem with telegram was it requires government ID. such privacy!! well, technically just a phone number but it's gotten harder to get those without ID now
[22:23] jfw: tor is yet another honeypot basically but it might be usable
[22:24] nekoluce: rob might not know how to help you with that ?
[22:25] nekoluce: he thought me some things of opensource programs and i told him of anna archive .w.
[22:26] nekoluce: or maybe you guys already new ? dunno
[22:26] nekoluce: if i dive deeper into the rabbit hole i think there was a software a friend recommend me
[22:27] nekoluce: i have it on whatsapp let me check
[22:27] jfw: with phone numbers? last I checked he's still using an old SIM card like me, we haven't found a current source of registration-free ones in panama. best idea was to go to the airport and try to buy them off departing tourists, lol
[22:28] jfw: it's actually easier in USA I think
[22:29] nekoluce: have you tried an esim ?
[22:29] jfw: I've seen they're pushing that but not sure how it works
[22:30] nekoluce: you buy a packaage and then it work like internet and a phone in several countries
[22:30] nekoluce: btw did you got my message on the phone ?
[22:31] nekoluce: i didnt pay it sorry i forgot xD
[22:31] nekoluce: now i can send messages again
[22:32] jfw: I got a couple messages, yeah, I'm just trying to consolidate the conversation here. so you couldn't send before because you hadn't paid and now it's ok?
[22:32] nekoluce: qubes os
[22:32] nekoluce: yep
[22:32] nekoluce: correct i didnt paid last month until i saw the message i had to pay
[22:33] nekoluce: but i could call which was weird i still dont understand
[22:33] nekoluce: but now i have minutes again
[22:33] jfw: right, a bit inconsistent. but sounds like problem solved.
[22:33] nekoluce: yes
[22:34] jfw: qubes os - that's something about running everything in VMs or containers if I recall
[22:34] nekoluce: could it be like a solution to run the programs that you need ?
[22:35] nekoluce: btw you didnt told me anything of the wood brocas ?
[22:35] jfw: it sounds like more problems than a solution to me, heh. I can already run virtual machines if needed though I prefer physical
[22:35] nekoluce: oh okay
[22:37] jfw: so let's see, you linked me to a set of concrete + metal bits; it looked fine, though I don't need the included screwdriver bits. We could then get the wood bits separately, sure, some reasonable range of sizes.
[22:37] jfw: there's no current need, just to have on hand because I have the drill anyway.
[22:38] nekoluce: so i got the four bulbs individually , the complete set of four in a pack the metal ones and concrete and yes about the wood ones there are different sizes...
[22:39] jfw: dorion: I asked her to look into drill bits along with the light bulbs, so you-know-who can just pay me back.
[22:40] nekoluce: rob says that ?
[22:40] jfw: that's me addressing rob.
[22:42] jfw: in inch terms maybe something like 1/8, 1/4 and 3/8 would do for the wood bits but we can see what you find
[22:47] nekoluce: depending on the model it depends on the price
[22:48] nekoluce: and brand
[22:50] nekoluce: found two of 1/8 in 0.99 cents
[22:52] jfw: I'm not picky about the brand here.
[22:53] nekoluce: there aint no 1/4
[22:53] nekoluce: for wood
[22:54] nekoluce: 3/8 1.75
[22:54] jfw: I guess that is pretty thick actually, might come only in the flat blade type, I forget what they're called. no problem
[22:55] jfw: 3/8 would be even thicker though
[22:55] nekoluce: but do you want it ?
[22:55] jfw: so there's nothing in between?
[22:56] nekoluce: let me see
[22:56] jfw: in metric it'd be between 3 and 6 mm
[22:57] nekoluce: there is one called flat blade 7/8" * 6" prenium for wood 2.25
[23:01] nekoluce: premium
[23:02] jfw: nah, just looking for the regular smaller ones in a range of sizes.
[23:02] jfw: helical / twist drills
[23:06] nekoluce: btw just before i forget
[23:07] nekoluce: today i read something about costa rica and brasil are going to get connected through flights
[23:08] nekoluce: isnt that great for you when you travel to visit your friends ?
[23:08] nekoluce: boeing flights
[23:12] jfw: like connected to Tocumen airport?
[23:12] nekoluce: like you can also go to brasil through costa rica
[23:13] nekoluce: boeing 737
[23:13] nekoluce: new flights
[23:13] jfw: ah ok. well currently I don't know many people in brazil but it was an idea to go explore
[23:14] nekoluce: hehe
[23:14] nekoluce: btw my mom says that we can see each other again just to take it slow .w.
[23:15] jfw: heh, alright, I'm glad she's found a way to calm down.
[23:16] nekoluce: .w. yup
[23:16] jfw: and didn't even need to bribe her with bread
[23:16] nekoluce: xD
[23:17] jfw: so how's that violin practice coming?
[23:17] nekoluce: yes im starting on january
[23:17] nekoluce: maybe the following next two weeks
[23:17] nekoluce: they havent called me yet
[23:18] nekoluce: do you wanna take classes with me ?
[23:18] nekoluce: just wondering
[23:19] jfw: hm, thanks but I think I mostly just need to get some regular practice to knock off the rust
[23:19] nekoluce: oh okay .w.
[23:20] nekoluce: i wanna see you play someday thou ;)
[23:20] jfw: sure. and maybe when I'm back from Maine you can show me what you can do
[23:20] nekoluce: sure
[23:20] nekoluce: are you currently on maine ?
[23:21] jfw: no, still planning on later january.
[23:21] nekoluce: oh okay
[23:21] jfw: but still got things to take care of h ere
[23:21] jfw: *here
[23:21] nekoluce: i bet you have to orgazine your trip well so everything stays still right ?
[23:22] nekoluce: like meetings so you can take the two weeks you ask for ?
[23:22] nekoluce: can you take some pictures of the snow please uwu?
[23:22] jfw: that's not so difficult especially as I don't have any students currently
[23:23] nekoluce: interesting .o.
[23:23] nekoluce: you are a teacher too?
[23:23] nekoluce: tell me more about it ....o.
[23:24] jfw: yes, there's the JWRD key management training http://jwrd.net/#training
[23:25] jfw: there was at least one review, too: http://ztkfg.com/2023/10/the-long-overdue-review-of-jwrds-training-course/
[23:28] jfw: it teaches Linux command-line basics in the context of operating a Bitcoin node and wallet, secure communications through RSA identities and related topics
[23:29] nekoluce: can i read it all ?
[23:29] nekoluce: it sounds so entertaining
[23:29] nekoluce: wow your work is so interesting jacob
[23:29] nekoluce: i respect you
[23:30] jfw: thank you. the focus is mostly on the in-person (or zoom call) interaction, there are supporting texts but I haven't written a textbook as yet
[23:30] nekoluce: you should
[23:30] nekoluce: and make a book of your life as well
[23:31] nekoluce: i could buy it and read it TTwTT
[23:32] jfw: well there is Fixpoint, it's free but it's true I don't write for it all that often
[23:35] nekoluce: i dont know if its becaause i admire your work so much but you do know that your grammar is excelent as well that is so addicted to read .
[23:37] jfw: and my speling two!
[23:37] nekoluce: indeed is lovely
[23:37] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2025/jwrd-logs-for-Jan-2025/#13106 - sure, always room for more snow pics
[23:37] sourcerer: 2025-01-02 23:22:40 (#jwrd) nekoluce: can you take some pictures of the snow please uwu?
[23:39] jfw: and as a blogger it's definitely motivating to have an audience so maybe you'll see more there too.
[23:40] jfw: there were a bunch of people around and reading when I started because I was doing it to align with TMSR - the most serene republic of bitcoin
[23:41] nekoluce: what do you think that might happen when there is no more bitcoin left ?
[23:41] jfw: won't happen; whatever bitcoin there is will simply be worth more
[23:41] nekoluce: i feel i want to talk about bitcoin everyday but im scared one day it might dissapeaar
[23:42] nekoluce: so crypto is infinite ?
[23:43] jfw: numbers at least are infinite indeed
[23:44] jfw: there are some reasons that it might disappear, or more likely continue to exist but not be secure or valuable; but what are your fears about?
[23:45] nekoluce: well i have always being surrounded by friends with the same interest learning about bitcoin what will be about it will the groups dissapear ?
[23:45] nekoluce: i consider my crypto groups as family
[23:46] nekoluce: even thou i understand you might consider them as business instead
[23:47] nekoluce: coding , talking about different topics and news is exciting
[23:47] nekoluce: you remmember when you said you didnt wanted to be alone me either
[23:48] jfw: I've already lived through such a collapse; actually it was a deliberate shutdown because the leader concluded that the world wasn't adequate to fulfill the vision. http://trilema.com/2020/closure/
[23:48] jfw: it was disorienting & distressing for sure
[23:50] jfw: prior to that it was stressful & exhausting, hard to keep up
[23:50] jfw: but basically, to my eyes the remaining lower-cost crypto groups just can't compare to what was lost
[23:52] jfw: but I'm still alive, so is bitcoin, and so are some friendships from there, so I carry on
[23:54] nekoluce: im glad i met you you are like the positive person i always needed to listen
[23:55] nekoluce: as long as im alive i still want to talk to you , you give me hope on people
[23:56] jfw: you're a pretty positive person yourself
[23:57] jfw: at least around me
[23:57] nekoluce: you think i feel i always talk as if im insecure myself
[23:57] nekoluce: thank you
[23:57] nekoluce: you bring the best of me
[23:59] jfw: I figure security comes from knowledge & experience; so insecurity is really just the default or natural state, to grow out of if possible
[23:59] jfw: well strength too, in whatever sense
Day changed to 2025-01-03
[00:01] nekoluce: the word strength comes hard upon myself sometimes ..sometimes i feel like i have no other option I know a lot of people but in new years eve i was completely alone even with my own mother
[00:02] nekoluce: watching other people instagram social media
[00:03] nekoluce: my family is all around the world but we barely talk
[00:03] nekoluce: so friends are the closest to family
[00:04] jfw: it's not an unusual situation these days unfortunately
[00:04] nekoluce: I love internet because i can talk to you this chat feels better than actually talking on whaatsapp
[00:04] jfw: and you know a lot of social media is pretty fake. like, people spend time showing off and making noise there because they don't have anything real to talk about with people around them
[00:05] nekoluce: more human
[00:05] nekoluce: it is
[00:06] nekoluce: I wish society was more human
[00:07] nekoluce: more warm
[00:07] nekoluce: less prejudice
[00:07] nekoluce: more empathy
[00:08] nekoluce: i was doing some recycling a month ago and the elder people where taking pictures with the jackets on instead of helping
[00:10] jfw: I wish so too. the approach is to find whatever humans might be around already, and work to build up potential-humans where possible; that's what Young Hands Club was about, but it shut down too for being too slow/ineffective; and Eulora I gather is sort of an attempt to find more sustainable & scalable ways to develop people
[00:12] nekoluce: what if we build something ?
[00:13] jfw: go on?
[00:14] nekoluce: like a website where people could talk about there emotions and dont show there faces something anonymous
[00:15] nekoluce: at least is an raw idea that i thought , what do you think
[00:15] jfw: I guess there's things like Alcoholics Anonymous that try to work something like that, heh.
[00:16] jfw: the trouble with anonymity is you can't really build relationships without longer term consistency
[00:16] jfw: online relationships without literal faces are certainly possible though
[00:18] jfw: but how much you get out of it very much depends on the people involved
[00:19] jfw: like, there's plenty of other IRC networks and channels but I'm only on this one; so it's not about the tech specifically, even though some technologies are better at facilitating quality conversations
[00:20] jfw: moderation also becomes necessary at some point, because once a space is sufficiently attractive & known, the idiots come in throwing shit around trying to ruin the party.
[00:21] nekoluce: i know ive been into public chats people mostly ask for sexting and in any age
[00:21] nekoluce: but i thought maybe thre is something that could be done just have to figure out the way to make it possible
[00:23] nekoluce: what if there are certain rules ?
[00:24] nekoluce: or protocols
[00:24] jfw: re sexting, I suppose there's no harm in their asking; either charge them for the privilege or decline if you're not so inclined; I can certainly imagine it being annoying, but it comes with the territory of being in the desirable demographic, you know?
[00:25] jfw: but certainly it sounds like they weren't very good at sales or else didn't have much else of substance to offer, so probably not high-quality online spaces, indeed.
[00:25] nekoluce: a high quality online space sounds nice
[00:26] nekoluce: people could offer a membership for the space ?
[00:26] nekoluce: and like duolingo the people who pay can give a freenium for those who cant pay with a limited access
[00:27] jfw: another piece that we're working on building/promoting is the Web of Trust, it can serve many of these purposes
[00:28] nekoluce: web of trust very good indeed is an excellent idea
[00:29] jfw: this was the canonical exposition of it, and here was an example of it in action for channel moderation
[00:30] jfw: if you make a GPG key then you can register it here using wotbot and I can rate you
[00:32] nekoluce: a key to access in order to each one to have their own validation
[00:32] nekoluce: ?
[00:33] jfw: your public key allows others to identify you online; you create it for yourself with a corresponding private key
[00:33] jfw: GPG is the software
[00:35] nekoluce: just as an ens thaat serves as an id or a wallet at the same time in the ethereum transactions
[00:37] jfw: probably so; proving ownership of an identity is pretty much the same thing as proving ownership of an address, after all
[00:38] jfw: just in one case you sign a very specific type of message authorizing transfer of funds, while in the other case you're signing human text or anything you want
[00:38] jfw: at the math level it's the same thing
[00:39] nekoluce: do youlike podcast?
[00:40] jfw: no, I like text and especially computer text; it's the most efficient and powerful form of expression
[00:40] nekoluce: oh okay
[00:40] nekoluce: then maybe you are going to like stacker news
[00:43] nekoluce: i did not see that cuming xD
[00:43] nekoluce: to explicit hahaha
[00:44] nekoluce: btw did you guys had beer pong some say its fun ?
[00:45] jfw: what, that I go for text?
[00:45] nekoluce: no no the picture on the text
[00:46] nekoluce: i bet you didnt saw it
[00:46] jfw: yeah I'm confused.
[00:46] nekoluce: http://trilema.com/2014/what-the-wot-is-for-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it/][this]
[00:46] nekoluce: go lower
[00:48] jfw: ok, where?
[00:49] jfw: the 'no platforms' picture?
[00:50] nekoluce: He doesn't know it, of course, but the icon of his delayed-pubescence sexual fantasies / identity formation is actually Ryder Monroe.
[00:51] jfw: sounds like trilema but I don't see that in the WoT article
[00:51] nekoluce: you know we are talking on the main chat right ?
[00:51] jfw: yep
[00:51] nekoluce: oh okay just for making sure
[00:51] nekoluce: oay so what i see
[00:52] nekoluce: is a trans fucking another trans
[00:52] jfw: lolz
[00:52] jfw: did you follow one of the links maybe?
[00:52] nekoluce: all creamy
[00:52] nekoluce: no is the same page
[00:52] jfw: because I don't see any pictures in that one
[00:53] nekoluce: i feel that youare trolling me now xD
[00:53] nekoluce: what are you going to have dinner tnight ?
[00:53] nekoluce: tonight
[00:54] jfw: I mean, it's the sort of thing that wouldn't surprise me to find on trilema but I honestly don't know what you're seeing.
[00:54] jfw: who knows.
[00:55] nekoluce: can even link him to efforts at selling Shemale loira aguentando tora de negão no cu etcetera. It looks somewhat like this :
[00:56] jfw: dinner - I'm thinking rice pilaf plus some more of that leftover fish that just keeps on going
[00:56] nekoluce: you really love fish
[00:57] nekoluce: do you think before you go we can go to the cinema ?
[00:57] jfw: I think the issue is I don't love this one that much, it tastes... extra fishy or something, so I haven't been going for big portions. I just got a .7kg fillet
[00:58] jfw: sure, let's plan that in PM though.
[00:59] nekoluce: today it happen that i tasted ceasar sauce and it taste just like you it was so weird
[00:59] nekoluce: okay pm is good
[01:00] jfw: I promise I have not given any part of myself for use in salad dressings.
[01:00] nekoluce: promise me you better not xD
[01:01] nekoluce: but now i know how it feels like
[01:01] jfw: I may have infiltrated your senses though.
[01:01] nekoluce: xDDD
[01:02] nekoluce: i got a couple of new recipes also researching today
[01:02] nekoluce: simple ones
[01:02] nekoluce: mostly are creams
[01:02] nekoluce: like sups
[01:02] nekoluce: soups
[01:04] jfw: nekoluce: from searching the text you quoted, it sounds like you're on http://trilema.com/2020/does-this-insanity-make-any-sense-whatsoever-to-anyone-at-all/ ; is it possible you typed or mis-copied my link? because trilema will take you to a random article if the link you give is not found
[01:05] nekoluce: like onions and carrots and create some stew and then put it into the blender just when you cool it down
[01:05] nekoluce: and ready to eat
[01:05] nekoluce: maybe
[01:05] nekoluce: i misstype it
[01:08] nekoluce: okay so i think you should want to go and eat i already had dinner so im going to take my pills and read for a while okay sweetdreams
[01:10] jfw: thanks, see ya
[01:10] nekoluce: see ya
[04:55] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2025/jwrd-logs-for-Jan-2025/#13234 - the pilaf ended up getting a red onion, garlic, lime zest, white wine, salt and pepper. I'm still just using water instead of homemade stock like it calls for. Came out pretty mild, but nice enough; and the sauteed Robalo fish is finally consumed.
[04:55] sourcerer: 2025-01-03 00:56:03 (#jwrd) jfw: dinner - I'm thinking rice pilaf plus some more of that leftover fish that just keeps on going
[05:00] jfw: nekoluce: I think I gave enough information about the drill bits so choose something as best you can, let me know the dollar total and I can deposit in the morning.
[06:31] lru: argh,why does the shit tend to win? here's this nice project to preserve all the world's knowledge, and then they fall prey to Telegram as their communication platform... it's like wanting to transform the accuracy of the world's accounting, and then storing your work on FAT floppy disks using DOS
[06:38] lru: I guess TMSR answered my question... no common technology was good enough, and so all technical wheels were reinvented and made ultra rock solid... while a decade passed, everyone was busy making their own titanium boot soles before starting the trip
[06:39] lru: what's good enough for some (git) is a house of cards to others (vpatch)... I know, I know :-)
[06:39] lru: I'm just amazed how many alternative, underground, anti-establishment projects I've seen who sound fantastic, until their contact link is a telegram URL
[06:40] lru: end rant
[15:26] jfw: LARPing all around, each with his own personalized failures and limitations quite invisible to himself
[15:30] jfw: morning nekoluce
[15:30] nekoluce: sorry for making you upset iru
[15:30] nekoluce: good morning jacob
[15:31] jfw: nekoluce: he wasn't upset with you, on the contrary you helped bring the topic to light, if unexpectedly
[15:31] nekoluce: awesome .w. !
[15:32] nekoluce: btw i sum at all and it end in 36.93 without one of the brocs
[15:32] nekoluce: because couldnt find 1/4
[15:33] jfw: alright and that includes the delivery?
[15:33] nekoluce: yes
[15:33] jfw: good, then I'll get to it shortly.
[15:34] nekoluce: okay if you need me i will be here only that i might be off in midday because i have a lunch with my mom's boss
[15:35] jfw: no problem
[15:37] jfw: and I think I see what happened at http://jfxpt.com/2025/jwrd-logs-for-Jan-2025/#13212 - perhaps you clicked the link as identified by your irc client, which included the closing square bracket and link text as part of the URL, which they aren't.
[15:37] sourcerer: 2025-01-03 00:46:53 (#jwrd) nekoluce: http://trilema.com/2014/what-the-wot-is-for-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it/][this]
[15:39] jfw: the web view converts those into proper HTML links; to open directly from IRC then it might be best to just copy the url "manually" and paste to browser
[15:42] jfw: lru: since you mention V though, note that there's more to it than just a new tool or patch format, and by some accounts was one of the more significant surviving things to come out of TMSR, even if more at the conceptual level than implementation.
[15:46] jfw: though I'll admit that at times I've also seen it as more of an obstacle than a support in practice.
[15:48] jfw: of course the same has been said of git by those accustomed to earlier things, or probably just about any innovation.
[15:53] jfw: and it's probably all true, because new things tend to be rough at first, and take time to mature. time, and sweat; and somebody has to pay for all that
[16:17] nekoluce: jacob sorry i forgot itbs
[16:18] nekoluce: its 39.03
[16:26] nekoluce: its 32.08 and 6.95 the delivery
[16:26] nekoluce: 32 with the itbms
[16:31] jfw: ah ok, got it.
[19:27] jfw: nekoluce: the deposit is made plus 10% for any surprises or otherwise a tip for the help; all clear to place the order.
[20:09] lru: nekoluce: oh don't worry about making me upset :-) it's just my puzzlement with telegram's success and other similar things
[20:16] jfw: lru: I guess for every Coke there's gotta be a Pepsi for those who want "alternative".
[20:17] lru: jfw: as I understand it, V = signed patches, while git = signed blockchain (it might already have signed commits these days, but I haven't put that through serious testing yet)
[20:17] lru: lol, perhaps
[20:18] lru: I'm glad to hear that there was at least one other person out there that went "wait, they want my *phone* number to sign up to this?" and balked
[20:21] jfw: perhaps closer to the spirit of it would be git = throwing some bits into a pile of bits, with crypto-stuff bolted on top, while V = presenting your work with due consideration to human consumption, with hard cryptographic guarantees built on WoT.
[20:22] lru: human consumption I understand.... can you elaborate on the hard crypto guarantees a bit? couldn't the same gpg keys used for git be in the WoT too?
[20:23] jfw: well, with Turing completeness you could emulate anything on top of anything, after all, but you lose something in the process and then you can look at how people actually use it based on how the tool shapes their habits
[20:25] lru: so V would make it harder to use a patch you didn't trust (or impossible) while git leaves it up to you whether you care to verify the signature at all or not
[20:26] lru: on the flip side, git encourages everyone to have a complete copy of the blockchain, while even just finding all the patches for the software you want with V is a challenge
[20:28] jfw: roughly; with V you choose explicitly whose signatures to trust and it's a core part, not optional indeed
[20:28] jfw: whether "challenge" or not depends on whether the authors or publishers want it to be, I suppose
[20:30] jfw: but I did some work to make it easy for one relatively special case, http://jfxpt.com/2022/the-simplest-way-yet-to-fetch-bitcoin-code/
[20:31] jfw: and there was the idea/observation of the reference code shelf
[20:36] lru: so.... I do like the idea of reading code as literature.... I appreciate the effort you've gone to, to make the bitcoin code simple to fetch... but there is a distinction that I think is helpful, that git does and V does not: it treats code like data. This means I can use the same tools I've trusted before to access, fetch, manage, store, and read(!) code, just like books, without needing to run anything like
[20:36] lru: a strange new helper script that I must read first to make sure does something sane. :-) I get the sense that this "code as data" is core to git, while outside the scope of V... perhaps there is room for another tool to library-ify code as data.
[20:40] jfw: code as data sounds like the compiler writer's perspective; the V world considers code as text.
[20:40] jfw: which is a subset of data, I guess.
[20:41] jfw: mechanically speaking
[20:41] lru: I mean it in the sense that HTTP treants text as data... there are common ways to fetch it, locate it, etc
[20:41] lru: treats*
[20:42] lru: git does that for code, really, any "source control" does that for code...it's the primary function of source control I guess
[20:42] lru: "get me version 1.5.3 of src/lib/math.c please"
[20:43] jfw: I'm not so sure about this "same tools as before without new strange being pushed" in practice - http://jfxpt.com/2022/jwrd-logs-for-Apr-2022/#3658
[20:43] sourcerer: 2022-04-03 19:30:00 (#jwrd) jfw: In unsurprising but still aggravating progress, github no longer supports git.
[20:43] lru: in V world, it might be "get me jfw's idea of the last 3 versions of src/lib/math.c please"
[20:47] jfw: I'd say that's in scope for V and I made some efforts to push it in that direction, probably not just me; but in practice, downloading the patches wasn't enough of a problem for the people actually using it so as to be worth optimizing yet, I'd say
[20:49] lru: "scans the world".... that's the hard part :-) but yes, I agree, in scope, with that requirement
[20:49] jfw: I do hear the point about the special new helper script and indeed I point out my original attempts to make it more universal, but what was available didn't meet my need so I had to make something new, and I made it as simple as I could manage.
[20:52] lru: it's that balance of trying to keep code simple, but then you're missing many common features... simple code might barely need an 8 line makefile, and works great, but the bigger it gets, the more autoconf or cmake or something makes sense... but as soon as you start using those tools, you're hitched to those version wagons, just like with git's protocol needing to change from time to time, or even HTTP getting
[20:52] lru: new versions over time (thankfully rarely)
[20:54] lru: anyway... maybe my balking is my sign I need to figure out how to make git and V friends instead of strangers
[20:55] jfw: how do you mean?
[20:58] jfw: note also there was a split, basically following the MP/asciilifeform split in the late days of the republic, between those who thought the extant V implementations were good enough or close enough to done, and those who concluded otherwise through experience, http://ossasepia.com/2021/08/23/its-called-vamp/
[21:01] lru: well, take your recent project for example... there is something to be said for being able to point a newbie at a git repo and a README file and having them bootstrap themselves... but in V world (or maybe TMSR world), that's not how you come in... instead you're expected to read multiple blogs from start to finish, gather patches as you go along, and then see the world from a whole new persective... and while
[21:01] lru: that path might actually be the fastest and least burden on the rest of TMSR, I still feel guilty asking you for links to various things because I have no clue where to find them... there's no door to simply hack on something in private until I have something semi useful
[21:01] lru: your recent project = the one you were offering to have someone setup a bot, I think, for 0.002 BTC
[21:02] jfw: nah, the demand in TMSR world was to interact with people. the blogs were supporting resources and of course the longer you'd been around and the more you'd read, the better clue you'd have of what was going on
[21:03] lru: interesting
[21:04] jfw: the barrier to lordship increased over time as more history accumulated, but there was room in the world for those who weren't there
[21:05] jfw: i.e. hacking in private aka manaloning was exactly the wrong approach, albeit a common failure mode.
[21:05] lru: manaloning lol, that's a new term for me
[21:07] lru: in many open projects, resources are created with the exact goal of reducing the amount of interaction, because that takes time away from actually doing stuff... is it different in TMSR due to size, or because doing stuff is not the goal?
[21:08] jfw: ahaha
[21:08] jfw: rather, interaction is a core part of doing any sort of useful stuff
[21:10] jfw: sure you can work to reduce redundant/boring interactions, hence all the fancy referencing systems for instance
[21:10] lru: TMSR cross referencing is epic :-)
[21:16] lru: side question about the WoT... do most people use their real names when interacting with it?
[21:20] jfw: it's encouraged, in the spirit of humanizing the relationships, but not required
[21:20] jfw: here's your manalone from the lexicon
[21:25] lru: somehow I think I've missed that page all this time
[21:26] lru: and there it is, right on the side panel
[21:26] lru: doh
[21:27] jfw: looks like that page came about in 2020, as a merge of prior articles.
[21:27] jfw will bbl
[21:27] lru: thanks for your help!
[22:06] nekoluce: hey
[23:37] nekoluce: hello ?
Day changed to 2025-01-04
[13:28] nekoluce: Good morning finish the shopping from the store .w. its coming and send you the receipt
[16:23] jfw: thank you nekoluce, can you confirm when is the expected delivery? because I don't see it there
[16:23] jfw: we're on the verge of answering the age-old question: how many panamanians does it take to change a light bulb?
[16:24] jfw: lru: you're welcome
[16:48] nekoluce: Happy new year!
[18:13] jfw: happy new year all, looks like nekoluce gets the "first post"
[18:26] nekoluce: first post first post !! huh yeah !
Day changed to 2025-01-02
[19:24] jfw: whaack or others - know any ways to grab individual items from annas-archive.org without submitting to browser challenge / cloudflare honeypot? pretty sad situation given their "open source & data" claims and observation of the threat from others' anti-scraping hijinks
[19:25] jfw: they do link to a torrent but in this case it's like a 4TB tar file, no way to get just the intended item.
[22:11] nekoluce: bellow slow options there is another option where you can not use a captcha
[22:11] nekoluce: but instead you have to use a waiting list
[22:12] nekoluce: a minute or two
[22:13] jfw: yeah that one didn't work, I'll illustrate...
[22:13] jfw: well it says right there in the parentheses, "might require browser verification"
[22:14] nekoluce: no dont take that one
[22:15] nekoluce: Option #3: Slow Partner Server #3 (no waitlist, but can be very slow) this one
[22:16] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/aa-says-take-your-pills.png
[22:16] jfw: same thing there
[22:16] nekoluce: oh
[22:17] nekoluce: so only option becoming a member
[22:17] nekoluce: and zlibrary ?
[22:17] nekoluce: or the russian one ?
[22:17] jfw: where is zlibrary these days? I recall there was an effort to shut it down
[22:18] nekoluce: https://www.rsl.ru/en/funds/
[22:18] nekoluce: z library in tor
[22:19] nekoluce: and in telegram
[22:19] nekoluce: i know you wont use telegram yet tor in the computer is worth trying ?
[22:20] jfw: oh like on a hidden service?
[22:20] nekoluce: yes
[22:21] nekoluce: you know there is telegram for computer as well maybe you can use it there ?
[22:21] nekoluce: to connect both and have zlibrary
[22:22] jfw: iirc the problem with telegram was it requires government ID. such privacy!! well, technically just a phone number but it's gotten harder to get those without ID now
[22:23] jfw: tor is yet another honeypot basically but it might be usable
[22:24] nekoluce: rob might not know how to help you with that ?
[22:25] nekoluce: he thought me some things of opensource programs and i told him of anna archive .w.
[22:26] nekoluce: or maybe you guys already new ? dunno
[22:26] nekoluce: if i dive deeper into the rabbit hole i think there was a software a friend recommend me
[22:27] nekoluce: i have it on whatsapp let me check
[22:27] jfw: with phone numbers? last I checked he's still using an old SIM card like me, we haven't found a current source of registration-free ones in panama. best idea was to go to the airport and try to buy them off departing tourists, lol
[22:28] jfw: it's actually easier in USA I think
[22:29] nekoluce: have you tried an esim ?
[22:29] jfw: I've seen they're pushing that but not sure how it works
[22:30] nekoluce: you buy a packaage and then it work like internet and a phone in several countries
[22:30] nekoluce: btw did you got my message on the phone ?
[22:31] nekoluce: i didnt pay it sorry i forgot xD
[22:31] nekoluce: now i can send messages again
[22:32] jfw: I got a couple messages, yeah, I'm just trying to consolidate the conversation here. so you couldn't send before because you hadn't paid and now it's ok?
[22:32] nekoluce: qubes os
[22:32] nekoluce: yep
[22:32] nekoluce: correct i didnt paid last month until i saw the message i had to pay
[22:33] nekoluce: but i could call which was weird i still dont understand
[22:33] nekoluce: but now i have minutes again
[22:33] jfw: right, a bit inconsistent. but sounds like problem solved.
[22:33] nekoluce: yes
[22:34] jfw: qubes os - that's something about running everything in VMs or containers if I recall
[22:34] nekoluce: could it be like a solution to run the programs that you need ?
[22:35] nekoluce: btw you didnt told me anything of the wood brocas ?
[22:35] jfw: it sounds like more problems than a solution to me, heh. I can already run virtual machines if needed though I prefer physical
[22:35] nekoluce: oh okay
[22:37] jfw: so let's see, you linked me to a set of concrete + metal bits; it looked fine, though I don't need the included screwdriver bits. We could then get the wood bits separately, sure, some reasonable range of sizes.
[22:37] jfw: there's no current need, just to have on hand because I have the drill anyway.
[22:38] nekoluce: so i got the four bulbs individually , the complete set of four in a pack the metal ones and concrete and yes about the wood ones there are different sizes...
[22:39] jfw: dorion: I asked her to look into drill bits along with the light bulbs, so you-know-who can just pay me back.
[22:40] nekoluce: rob says that ?
[22:40] jfw: that's me addressing rob.
[22:42] jfw: in inch terms maybe something like 1/8, 1/4 and 3/8 would do for the wood bits but we can see what you find
[22:47] nekoluce: depending on the model it depends on the price
[22:48] nekoluce: and brand
[22:50] nekoluce: found two of 1/8 in 0.99 cents
[22:52] jfw: I'm not picky about the brand here.
[22:53] nekoluce: there aint no 1/4
[22:53] nekoluce: for wood
[22:54] nekoluce: 3/8 1.75
[22:54] jfw: I guess that is pretty thick actually, might come only in the flat blade type, I forget what they're called. no problem
[22:55] jfw: 3/8 would be even thicker though
[22:55] nekoluce: but do you want it ?
[22:55] jfw: so there's nothing in between?
[22:56] nekoluce: let me see
[22:56] jfw: in metric it'd be between 3 and 6 mm
[22:57] nekoluce: there is one called flat blade 7/8" * 6" prenium for wood 2.25
[23:01] nekoluce: premium
[23:02] jfw: nah, just looking for the regular smaller ones in a range of sizes.
[23:02] jfw: helical / twist drills
[23:06] nekoluce: btw just before i forget
[23:07] nekoluce: today i read something about costa rica and brasil are going to get connected through flights
[23:08] nekoluce: isnt that great for you when you travel to visit your friends ?
[23:08] nekoluce: boeing flights
[23:12] jfw: like connected to Tocumen airport?
[23:12] nekoluce: like you can also go to brasil through costa rica
[23:13] nekoluce: boeing 737
[23:13] nekoluce: new flights
[23:13] jfw: ah ok. well currently I don't know many people in brazil but it was an idea to go explore
[23:14] nekoluce: hehe
[23:14] nekoluce: btw my mom says that we can see each other again just to take it slow .w.
[23:15] jfw: heh, alright, I'm glad she's found a way to calm down.
[23:16] nekoluce: .w. yup
[23:16] jfw: and didn't even need to bribe her with bread
[23:16] nekoluce: xD
[23:17] jfw: so how's that violin practice coming?
[23:17] nekoluce: yes im starting on january
[23:17] nekoluce: maybe the following next two weeks
[23:17] nekoluce: they havent called me yet
[23:18] nekoluce: do you wanna take classes with me ?
[23:18] nekoluce: just wondering
[23:19] jfw: hm, thanks but I think I mostly just need to get some regular practice to knock off the rust
[23:19] nekoluce: oh okay .w.
[23:20] nekoluce: i wanna see you play someday thou ;)
[23:20] jfw: sure. and maybe when I'm back from Maine you can show me what you can do
[23:20] nekoluce: sure
[23:20] nekoluce: are you currently on maine ?
[23:21] jfw: no, still planning on later january.
[23:21] nekoluce: oh okay
[23:21] jfw: but still got things to take care of h ere
[23:21] jfw: *here
[23:21] nekoluce: i bet you have to orgazine your trip well so everything stays still right ?
[23:22] nekoluce: like meetings so you can take the two weeks you ask for ?
[23:22] nekoluce: can you take some pictures of the snow please uwu?
[23:22] jfw: that's not so difficult especially as I don't have any students currently
[23:23] nekoluce: interesting .o.
[23:23] nekoluce: you are a teacher too?
[23:23] nekoluce: tell me more about it ....o.
[23:24] jfw: yes, there's the JWRD key management training http://jwrd.net/#training
[23:25] jfw: there was at least one review, too: http://ztkfg.com/2023/10/the-long-overdue-review-of-jwrds-training-course/
[23:28] jfw: it teaches Linux command-line basics in the context of operating a Bitcoin node and wallet, secure communications through RSA identities and related topics
[23:29] nekoluce: can i read it all ?
[23:29] nekoluce: it sounds so entertaining
[23:29] nekoluce: wow your work is so interesting jacob
[23:29] nekoluce: i respect you
[23:30] jfw: thank you. the focus is mostly on the in-person (or zoom call) interaction, there are supporting texts but I haven't written a textbook as yet
[23:30] nekoluce: you should
[23:30] nekoluce: and make a book of your life as well
[23:31] nekoluce: i could buy it and read it TTwTT
[23:32] jfw: well there is Fixpoint, it's free but it's true I don't write for it all that often
[23:35] nekoluce: i dont know if its becaause i admire your work so much but you do know that your grammar is excelent as well that is so addicted to read .
[23:37] jfw: and my speling two!
[23:37] nekoluce: indeed is lovely
[23:37] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2025/jwrd-logs-for-Jan-2025/#13106 - sure, always room for more snow pics
[23:37] sourcerer: 2025-01-02 23:22:40 (#jwrd) nekoluce: can you take some pictures of the snow please uwu?
[23:39] jfw: and as a blogger it's definitely motivating to have an audience so maybe you'll see more there too.
[23:40] jfw: there were a bunch of people around and reading when I started because I was doing it to align with TMSR - the most serene republic of bitcoin
[23:41] nekoluce: what do you think that might happen when there is no more bitcoin left ?
[23:41] jfw: won't happen; whatever bitcoin there is will simply be worth more
[23:41] nekoluce: i feel i want to talk about bitcoin everyday but im scared one day it might dissapeaar
[23:42] nekoluce: so crypto is infinite ?
[23:43] jfw: numbers at least are infinite indeed
[23:44] jfw: there are some reasons that it might disappear, or more likely continue to exist but not be secure or valuable; but what are your fears about?
[23:45] nekoluce: well i have always being surrounded by friends with the same interest learning about bitcoin what will be about it will the groups dissapear ?
[23:45] nekoluce: i consider my crypto groups as family
[23:46] nekoluce: even thou i understand you might consider them as business instead
[23:47] nekoluce: coding , talking about different topics and news is exciting
[23:47] nekoluce: you remmember when you said you didnt wanted to be alone me either
[23:48] jfw: I've already lived through such a collapse; actually it was a deliberate shutdown because the leader concluded that the world wasn't adequate to fulfill the vision. http://trilema.com/2020/closure/
[23:48] jfw: it was disorienting & distressing for sure
[23:50] jfw: prior to that it was stressful & exhausting, hard to keep up
[23:50] jfw: but basically, to my eyes the remaining lower-cost crypto groups just can't compare to what was lost
[23:52] jfw: but I'm still alive, so is bitcoin, and so are some friendships from there, so I carry on
[23:54] nekoluce: im glad i met you you are like the positive person i always needed to listen
[23:55] nekoluce: as long as im alive i still want to talk to you , you give me hope on people
[23:56] jfw: you're a pretty positive person yourself
[23:57] jfw: at least around me
[23:57] nekoluce: you think i feel i always talk as if im insecure myself
[23:57] nekoluce: thank you
[23:57] nekoluce: you bring the best of me
[23:59] jfw: I figure security comes from knowledge & experience; so insecurity is really just the default or natural state, to grow out of if possible
[23:59] jfw: well strength too, in whatever sense
Day changed to 2025-01-03
[00:01] nekoluce: the word strength comes hard upon myself sometimes ..sometimes i feel like i have no other option I know a lot of people but in new years eve i was completely alone even with my own mother
[00:02] nekoluce: watching other people instagram social media
[00:03] nekoluce: my family is all around the world but we barely talk
[00:03] nekoluce: so friends are the closest to family
[00:04] jfw: it's not an unusual situation these days unfortunately
[00:04] nekoluce: I love internet because i can talk to you this chat feels better than actually talking on whaatsapp
[00:04] jfw: and you know a lot of social media is pretty fake. like, people spend time showing off and making noise there because they don't have anything real to talk about with people around them
[00:05] nekoluce: more human
[00:05] nekoluce: it is
[00:06] nekoluce: I wish society was more human
[00:07] nekoluce: more warm
[00:07] nekoluce: less prejudice
[00:07] nekoluce: more empathy
[00:08] nekoluce: i was doing some recycling a month ago and the elder people where taking pictures with the jackets on instead of helping
[00:10] jfw: I wish so too. the approach is to find whatever humans might be around already, and work to build up potential-humans where possible; that's what Young Hands Club was about, but it shut down too for being too slow/ineffective; and Eulora I gather is sort of an attempt to find more sustainable & scalable ways to develop people
[00:12] nekoluce: what if we build something ?
[00:13] jfw: go on?
[00:14] nekoluce: like a website where people could talk about there emotions and dont show there faces something anonymous
[00:15] nekoluce: at least is an raw idea that i thought , what do you think
[00:15] jfw: I guess there's things like Alcoholics Anonymous that try to work something like that, heh.
[00:16] jfw: the trouble with anonymity is you can't really build relationships without longer term consistency
[00:16] jfw: online relationships without literal faces are certainly possible though
[00:18] jfw: but how much you get out of it very much depends on the people involved
[00:19] jfw: like, there's plenty of other IRC networks and channels but I'm only on this one; so it's not about the tech specifically, even though some technologies are better at facilitating quality conversations
[00:20] jfw: moderation also becomes necessary at some point, because once a space is sufficiently attractive & known, the idiots come in throwing shit around trying to ruin the party.
[00:21] nekoluce: i know ive been into public chats people mostly ask for sexting and in any age
[00:21] nekoluce: but i thought maybe thre is something that could be done just have to figure out the way to make it possible
[00:23] nekoluce: what if there are certain rules ?
[00:24] nekoluce: or protocols
[00:24] jfw: re sexting, I suppose there's no harm in their asking; either charge them for the privilege or decline if you're not so inclined; I can certainly imagine it being annoying, but it comes with the territory of being in the desirable demographic, you know?
[00:25] jfw: but certainly it sounds like they weren't very good at sales or else didn't have much else of substance to offer, so probably not high-quality online spaces, indeed.
[00:25] nekoluce: a high quality online space sounds nice
[00:26] nekoluce: people could offer a membership for the space ?
[00:26] nekoluce: and like duolingo the people who pay can give a freenium for those who cant pay with a limited access
[00:27] jfw: another piece that we're working on building/promoting is the Web of Trust, it can serve many of these purposes
[00:28] nekoluce: web of trust very good indeed is an excellent idea
[00:29] jfw: this was the canonical exposition of it, and here was an example of it in action for channel moderation
[00:30] jfw: if you make a GPG key then you can register it here using wotbot and I can rate you
[00:32] nekoluce: a key to access in order to each one to have their own validation
[00:32] nekoluce: ?
[00:33] jfw: your public key allows others to identify you online; you create it for yourself with a corresponding private key
[00:33] jfw: GPG is the software
[00:35] nekoluce: just as an ens thaat serves as an id or a wallet at the same time in the ethereum transactions
[00:37] jfw: probably so; proving ownership of an identity is pretty much the same thing as proving ownership of an address, after all
[00:38] jfw: just in one case you sign a very specific type of message authorizing transfer of funds, while in the other case you're signing human text or anything you want
[00:38] jfw: at the math level it's the same thing
[00:39] nekoluce: do youlike podcast?
[00:40] jfw: no, I like text and especially computer text; it's the most efficient and powerful form of expression
[00:40] nekoluce: oh okay
[00:40] nekoluce: then maybe you are going to like stacker news
[00:43] nekoluce: i did not see that cuming xD
[00:43] nekoluce: to explicit hahaha
[00:44] nekoluce: btw did you guys had beer pong some say its fun ?
[00:45] jfw: what, that I go for text?
[00:45] nekoluce: no no the picture on the text
[00:46] nekoluce: i bet you didnt saw it
[00:46] jfw: yeah I'm confused.
[00:46] nekoluce: http://trilema.com/2014/what-the-wot-is-for-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it/][this]
[00:46] nekoluce: go lower
[00:48] jfw: ok, where?
[00:49] jfw: the 'no platforms' picture?
[00:50] nekoluce: He doesn't know it, of course, but the icon of his delayed-pubescence sexual fantasies / identity formation is actually Ryder Monroe.
[00:51] jfw: sounds like trilema but I don't see that in the WoT article
[00:51] nekoluce: you know we are talking on the main chat right ?
[00:51] jfw: yep
[00:51] nekoluce: oh okay just for making sure
[00:51] nekoluce: oay so what i see
[00:52] nekoluce: is a trans fucking another trans
[00:52] jfw: lolz
[00:52] jfw: did you follow one of the links maybe?
[00:52] nekoluce: all creamy
[00:52] nekoluce: no is the same page
[00:52] jfw: because I don't see any pictures in that one
[00:53] nekoluce: i feel that youare trolling me now xD
[00:53] nekoluce: what are you going to have dinner tnight ?
[00:53] nekoluce: tonight
[00:54] jfw: I mean, it's the sort of thing that wouldn't surprise me to find on trilema but I honestly don't know what you're seeing.
[00:54] jfw: who knows.
[00:55] nekoluce: can even link him to efforts at selling Shemale loira aguentando tora de negão no cu etcetera. It looks somewhat like this :
[00:56] jfw: dinner - I'm thinking rice pilaf plus some more of that leftover fish that just keeps on going
[00:56] nekoluce: you really love fish
[00:57] nekoluce: do you think before you go we can go to the cinema ?
[00:57] jfw: I think the issue is I don't love this one that much, it tastes... extra fishy or something, so I haven't been going for big portions. I just got a .7kg fillet
[00:58] jfw: sure, let's plan that in PM though.
[00:59] nekoluce: today it happen that i tasted ceasar sauce and it taste just like you it was so weird
[00:59] nekoluce: okay pm is good
[01:00] jfw: I promise I have not given any part of myself for use in salad dressings.
[01:00] nekoluce: promise me you better not xD
[01:01] nekoluce: but now i know how it feels like
[01:01] jfw: I may have infiltrated your senses though.
[01:01] nekoluce: xDDD
[01:02] nekoluce: i got a couple of new recipes also researching today
[01:02] nekoluce: simple ones
[01:02] nekoluce: mostly are creams
[01:02] nekoluce: like sups
[01:02] nekoluce: soups
[01:04] jfw: nekoluce: from searching the text you quoted, it sounds like you're on http://trilema.com/2020/does-this-insanity-make-any-sense-whatsoever-to-anyone-at-all/ ; is it possible you typed or mis-copied my link? because trilema will take you to a random article if the link you give is not found
[01:05] nekoluce: like onions and carrots and create some stew and then put it into the blender just when you cool it down
[01:05] nekoluce: and ready to eat
[01:05] nekoluce: maybe
[01:05] nekoluce: i misstype it
[01:08] nekoluce: okay so i think you should want to go and eat i already had dinner so im going to take my pills and read for a while okay sweetdreams
[01:10] jfw: thanks, see ya
[01:10] nekoluce: see ya
[04:55] jfw: http://jfxpt.com/2025/jwrd-logs-for-Jan-2025/#13234 - the pilaf ended up getting a red onion, garlic, lime zest, white wine, salt and pepper. I'm still just using water instead of homemade stock like it calls for. Came out pretty mild, but nice enough; and the sauteed Robalo fish is finally consumed.
[04:55] sourcerer: 2025-01-03 00:56:03 (#jwrd) jfw: dinner - I'm thinking rice pilaf plus some more of that leftover fish that just keeps on going
[05:00] jfw: nekoluce: I think I gave enough information about the drill bits so choose something as best you can, let me know the dollar total and I can deposit in the morning.
[06:31] lru: argh,why does the shit tend to win? here's this nice project to preserve all the world's knowledge, and then they fall prey to Telegram as their communication platform... it's like wanting to transform the accuracy of the world's accounting, and then storing your work on FAT floppy disks using DOS
[06:38] lru: I guess TMSR answered my question... no common technology was good enough, and so all technical wheels were reinvented and made ultra rock solid... while a decade passed, everyone was busy making their own titanium boot soles before starting the trip
[06:39] lru: what's good enough for some (git) is a house of cards to others (vpatch)... I know, I know :-)
[06:39] lru: I'm just amazed how many alternative, underground, anti-establishment projects I've seen who sound fantastic, until their contact link is a telegram URL
[06:40] lru: end rant
[15:26] jfw: LARPing all around, each with his own personalized failures and limitations quite invisible to himself
[15:30] jfw: morning nekoluce
[15:30] nekoluce: sorry for making you upset iru
[15:30] nekoluce: good morning jacob
[15:31] jfw: nekoluce: he wasn't upset with you, on the contrary you helped bring the topic to light, if unexpectedly
[15:31] nekoluce: awesome .w. !
[15:32] nekoluce: btw i sum at all and it end in 36.93 without one of the brocs
[15:32] nekoluce: because couldnt find 1/4
[15:33] jfw: alright and that includes the delivery?
[15:33] nekoluce: yes
[15:33] jfw: good, then I'll get to it shortly.
[15:34] nekoluce: okay if you need me i will be here only that i might be off in midday because i have a lunch with my mom's boss
[15:35] jfw: no problem
[15:37] jfw: and I think I see what happened at http://jfxpt.com/2025/jwrd-logs-for-Jan-2025/#13212 - perhaps you clicked the link as identified by your irc client, which included the closing square bracket and link text as part of the URL, which they aren't.
[15:37] sourcerer: 2025-01-03 00:46:53 (#jwrd) nekoluce: http://trilema.com/2014/what-the-wot-is-for-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it/][this]
[15:39] jfw: the web view converts those into proper HTML links; to open directly from IRC then it might be best to just copy the url "manually" and paste to browser
[15:42] jfw: lru: since you mention V though, note that there's more to it than just a new tool or patch format, and by some accounts was one of the more significant surviving things to come out of TMSR, even if more at the conceptual level than implementation.
[15:46] jfw: though I'll admit that at times I've also seen it as more of an obstacle than a support in practice.
[15:48] jfw: of course the same has been said of git by those accustomed to earlier things, or probably just about any innovation.
[15:53] jfw: and it's probably all true, because new things tend to be rough at first, and take time to mature. time, and sweat; and somebody has to pay for all that
[16:17] nekoluce: jacob sorry i forgot itbs
[16:18] nekoluce: its 39.03
[16:26] nekoluce: its 32.08 and 6.95 the delivery
[16:26] nekoluce: 32 with the itbms
[16:31] jfw: ah ok, got it.
[19:27] jfw: nekoluce: the deposit is made plus 10% for any surprises or otherwise a tip for the help; all clear to place the order.
[20:09] lru: nekoluce: oh don't worry about making me upset :-) it's just my puzzlement with telegram's success and other similar things
[20:16] jfw: lru: I guess for every Coke there's gotta be a Pepsi for those who want "alternative".
[20:17] lru: jfw: as I understand it, V = signed patches, while git = signed blockchain (it might already have signed commits these days, but I haven't put that through serious testing yet)
[20:17] lru: lol, perhaps
[20:18] lru: I'm glad to hear that there was at least one other person out there that went "wait, they want my *phone* number to sign up to this?" and balked
[20:21] jfw: perhaps closer to the spirit of it would be git = throwing some bits into a pile of bits, with crypto-stuff bolted on top, while V = presenting your work with due consideration to human consumption, with hard cryptographic guarantees built on WoT.
[20:22] lru: human consumption I understand.... can you elaborate on the hard crypto guarantees a bit? couldn't the same gpg keys used for git be in the WoT too?
[20:23] jfw: well, with Turing completeness you could emulate anything on top of anything, after all, but you lose something in the process and then you can look at how people actually use it based on how the tool shapes their habits
[20:25] lru: so V would make it harder to use a patch you didn't trust (or impossible) while git leaves it up to you whether you care to verify the signature at all or not
[20:26] lru: on the flip side, git encourages everyone to have a complete copy of the blockchain, while even just finding all the patches for the software you want with V is a challenge
[20:28] jfw: roughly; with V you choose explicitly whose signatures to trust and it's a core part, not optional indeed
[20:28] jfw: whether "challenge" or not depends on whether the authors or publishers want it to be, I suppose
[20:30] jfw: but I did some work to make it easy for one relatively special case, http://jfxpt.com/2022/the-simplest-way-yet-to-fetch-bitcoin-code/
[20:31] jfw: and there was the idea/observation of the reference code shelf
[20:36] lru: so.... I do like the idea of reading code as literature.... I appreciate the effort you've gone to, to make the bitcoin code simple to fetch... but there is a distinction that I think is helpful, that git does and V does not: it treats code like data. This means I can use the same tools I've trusted before to access, fetch, manage, store, and read(!) code, just like books, without needing to run anything like
[20:36] lru: a strange new helper script that I must read first to make sure does something sane. :-) I get the sense that this "code as data" is core to git, while outside the scope of V... perhaps there is room for another tool to library-ify code as data.
[20:40] jfw: code as data sounds like the compiler writer's perspective; the V world considers code as text.
[20:40] jfw: which is a subset of data, I guess.
[20:41] jfw: mechanically speaking
[20:41] lru: I mean it in the sense that HTTP treants text as data... there are common ways to fetch it, locate it, etc
[20:41] lru: treats*
[20:42] lru: git does that for code, really, any "source control" does that for code...it's the primary function of source control I guess
[20:42] lru: "get me version 1.5.3 of src/lib/math.c please"
[20:43] jfw: I'm not so sure about this "same tools as before without new strange being pushed" in practice - http://jfxpt.com/2022/jwrd-logs-for-Apr-2022/#3658
[20:43] sourcerer: 2022-04-03 19:30:00 (#jwrd) jfw: In unsurprising but still aggravating progress, github no longer supports git.
[20:43] lru: in V world, it might be "get me jfw's idea of the last 3 versions of src/lib/math.c please"
[20:47] jfw: I'd say that's in scope for V and I made some efforts to push it in that direction, probably not just me; but in practice, downloading the patches wasn't enough of a problem for the people actually using it so as to be worth optimizing yet, I'd say
[20:49] lru: "scans the world".... that's the hard part :-) but yes, I agree, in scope, with that requirement
[20:49] jfw: I do hear the point about the special new helper script and indeed I point out my original attempts to make it more universal, but what was available didn't meet my need so I had to make something new, and I made it as simple as I could manage.
[20:52] lru: it's that balance of trying to keep code simple, but then you're missing many common features... simple code might barely need an 8 line makefile, and works great, but the bigger it gets, the more autoconf or cmake or something makes sense... but as soon as you start using those tools, you're hitched to those version wagons, just like with git's protocol needing to change from time to time, or even HTTP getting
[20:52] lru: new versions over time (thankfully rarely)
[20:54] lru: anyway... maybe my balking is my sign I need to figure out how to make git and V friends instead of strangers
[20:55] jfw: how do you mean?
[20:58] jfw: note also there was a split, basically following the MP/asciilifeform split in the late days of the republic, between those who thought the extant V implementations were good enough or close enough to done, and those who concluded otherwise through experience, http://ossasepia.com/2021/08/23/its-called-vamp/
[21:01] lru: well, take your recent project for example... there is something to be said for being able to point a newbie at a git repo and a README file and having them bootstrap themselves... but in V world (or maybe TMSR world), that's not how you come in... instead you're expected to read multiple blogs from start to finish, gather patches as you go along, and then see the world from a whole new persective... and while
[21:01] lru: that path might actually be the fastest and least burden on the rest of TMSR, I still feel guilty asking you for links to various things because I have no clue where to find them... there's no door to simply hack on something in private until I have something semi useful
[21:01] lru: your recent project = the one you were offering to have someone setup a bot, I think, for 0.002 BTC
[21:02] jfw: nah, the demand in TMSR world was to interact with people. the blogs were supporting resources and of course the longer you'd been around and the more you'd read, the better clue you'd have of what was going on
[21:03] lru: interesting
[21:04] jfw: the barrier to lordship increased over time as more history accumulated, but there was room in the world for those who weren't there
[21:05] jfw: i.e. hacking in private aka manaloning was exactly the wrong approach, albeit a common failure mode.
[21:05] lru: manaloning lol, that's a new term for me
[21:07] lru: in many open projects, resources are created with the exact goal of reducing the amount of interaction, because that takes time away from actually doing stuff... is it different in TMSR due to size, or because doing stuff is not the goal?
[21:08] jfw: ahaha
[21:08] jfw: rather, interaction is a core part of doing any sort of useful stuff
[21:10] jfw: sure you can work to reduce redundant/boring interactions, hence all the fancy referencing systems for instance
[21:10] lru: TMSR cross referencing is epic :-)
[21:16] lru: side question about the WoT... do most people use their real names when interacting with it?
[21:20] jfw: it's encouraged, in the spirit of humanizing the relationships, but not required
[21:20] jfw: here's your manalone from the lexicon
[21:25] lru: somehow I think I've missed that page all this time
[21:26] lru: and there it is, right on the side panel
[21:26] lru: doh
[21:27] jfw: looks like that page came about in 2020, as a merge of prior articles.
[21:27] jfw will bbl
[21:27] lru: thanks for your help!
[22:06] nekoluce: hey
[23:37] nekoluce: hello ?
Day changed to 2025-01-04
[13:28] nekoluce: Good morning finish the shopping from the store .w. its coming and send you the receipt
[16:23] jfw: thank you nekoluce, can you confirm when is the expected delivery? because I don't see it there
[16:23] jfw: we're on the verge of answering the age-old question: how many panamanians does it take to change a light bulb?
[16:24] jfw: lru: you're welcome