Day changed to 2021-01-01
[01:46] jfw: cruciform: your crate is sealed up and ready to fly - but UPS was closed by the time I was ready today and will surely be on holiday still tomorrow. If you can give us an update on your timing constraints it would be appreciated, as we can look into faster options if there's cause.
[02:05] cruciform: jfw, I'll likely be in the UK until at least mid-Jan, so shouldn't be a problem
[02:06] cruciform: there's a decent chance we'll go into another full-lockdown, with all flights banned, too
[02:06] jfw: "likely"? heh
[02:06] cruciform: I'd snap off even-money, if offered
[02:07] jfw: I either lack the poker or the en_GB to follow you there
[02:07] cruciform: I've been drinking, and the error's on my part
[02:07] jfw: ah cheers
[02:07] cruciform: but ye, it had poker talk mixed in, too
[02:08] cruciform: I expect >50% chance UK locks down in Jan
[02:08] cruciform: I extended my lease til end of Jan, so we'll see
[02:09] jfw: is the idea that if it doesn't lock down then you'd be leaving sooner?
[02:09] cruciform: I'm currently the ONLY person not muzzled @ grocery store
[02:10] cruciform: I wanna see what happens in early Jan, before booking flights/accom and having to cancel everything
[02:10] jfw: they've even officially branded such now here as "being That Guy"
[02:10] cruciform: hehe, I tell girls that I've a medical exemption: too good-looking to wear a mask
[02:11] jfw: ok so as long as the crate goes out on the 2nd using the previously agreed service level it will be fine, is what I'm hearing
[02:11] cruciform: most annoying aspect of lockdowns is that girls are reluctant to go on dates
[02:12] cruciform: yes, that'll be fine
[02:12] jfw: alright, ty.
[02:12] jfw: so how's that medical line been working?
[02:18] jfw: from what I hear it's more "I'm not scared for myself, I just don't want to endanger others, it would be The Not Good"
[02:19] jfw: ohai trilema database connection error - it's not just me!
[02:19] sourcerer: 2020-12-08 18:38:29 (#jwrd) jfw: ACTION gets a bigger iptables hammer for these bots pounding on /xmlrpc.php - but congrats I guess for knocking over my mysqld for ~2 hours
[02:34] jfw: I shall be back later.
Day changed to 2021-01-04
[22:20] cruciform: while viruses evolve, hysteria doesn't: UK fully locked down again (3rd time's the charm?)
[22:21] cruciform: no problems anywhere except the Apple store, who REALLY wanted me to wear a mask http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2021/jwrd-logs-for-Jan-2021/#1181
[22:21] sourcerer: 2021-01-01 02:12:57 (#jwrd) jfw: so how's that medical line been working?
Day changed to 2021-01-05
[17:43] jfw: cruciform: not too surprising re Apple & not bad otherwise
[17:43] jfw: and a friendly reminder / checkin that we're back to class today.
[18:13] cruciform: jfw, apologies for tardiness - firing up Zoom
Day changed to 2021-01-07
[21:06] jfw: I gather cruciform's package made it into the beseiged island and without signs of meddling, cheers!
[21:09] jfw: cruciform, how did the outer corrugated box and tape hold up? last time I shipped internationally it was to myself in Panama, and the structural integrity of my boxes was almost entirely compromised. Thus I went to some lengths to do it better this time (though it was also a much lighter package).
[21:13] jfw: *besieged
Day changed to 2021-01-08
[22:31] jfw: In the logical next step after going forced-SSL, I've now observed archive.is requiring captcha.
Day changed to 2021-01-09
[01:13] cruciform: jfw, the box held up fine, as did the padding inside. Just waiting on my plug converters to arrive
[01:13] cruciform: also, the UPS delivery girl was cute!
[04:39] jfw: ah good, I made sure to tick the box for that option.
[04:40] jfw: Come to think of it though, I can't recall a time I saw a female working a parcel delivery route over here
[04:41] jfw: Driving busses, yes.
Day changed to 2021-01-11
[00:28] cruciform: jfw, dorion: long story, but: I've managed to lose both the laptops you guys sent me (still got the router and assorted small cables)... plz to sell me more?
[00:29] cruciform: it'll take me a few days to get a transaction primed, so perhaps you could take it off what I've already paid for modules 2+3, so as to get the ball rolling faster?
[00:30] cruciform: ie. I'll have paid for module 2 still, but module 3 is not to be delivered til I pay for the replacement laptops
[00:30] cruciform: (by "a few days" might be a week or so
[01:33] jfw: o_O any bits of that long (or more likely: short but embarassing) story you'd be willing to share?
[01:35] jfw: I do hope you realize that if you misplace a pile of cash, no amount of technical or mathematical knowledge is going to help bring it back
[01:43] jfw: anyways I'm happy to cook up more machines as long as there's demand, but it may take a couple weeks (as before)
[01:47] jfw: I'll get started on the raw material orders tomorrow and leave it to dorion to work out payment.
[01:48] cruciform: jfw, thanks a lot; I'll save the story for another day (since this one's been so long already!)
[01:48] cruciform: may be sporadically online over next few days; shall be checking the log
[01:49] jfw: alright, have fun with whatever the adventures may be.
[01:50] cruciform: cheers! :)
[21:04] jfw: cruciform: given that we have a log now, it'd be better if you just stay disconnected while your link is unstable except when actually talking
[21:04] cruciform: jfw: gotcha
Day changed to 2021-01-12
[16:22] jfw: cruciform, how's it been with the assigned cryptography reading?
[16:24] jfw: or more specifically, will you be ready to talk about it?
[16:37] cruciform: jfw: I'm terribly sorry for the late notice; I've not got round to it - can we reschedule for this Thursday at 18:00 UTC?
[16:37] cruciform: to say it's been a long week is something of an understatement
[16:38] jfw: Yes we can; good luck.
[16:41] jfw: As a note to future readers though, this degree of (repeat) flexibility is offered because my teaching & meetings schedule is still relatively light, and is not guaranteed to continue.
[16:54] cruciform: one hopes the continued derping of future (and current!!) students is likewise not guaranteed!
[16:57] jfw: derping generally continues as long as it can afford to, or so I gather.
[17:15] cruciform: I dare say you're right; here's to stemming the derpitutude BEFORE it becomes a matter of cannot-afford-to!
[17:24] jfw: perhaps more accurately, as long as it perceives it can afford to.
[17:37] cruciform: yes - and I belive I'm finally being disabused of that fanciful notion
Day changed to 2021-01-13
[17:23] jfw: For anyone wanting to move btc, it's looking like a paytxfee=.0003 or even .0004 would be in order for present conditions. I don't presently have any other trusted source (*cough* block explorer) to suggest for finding this information.
[17:45] dorion: jfw, this source requires js, but I find it useful : https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin/ ; and indeed, in last 24h they report avg tx fee : 0.00049 BTC (0.0000013 BTC/byte) and median tx fee : 0.00025 BTC.
[20:08] jfw: to me those sites fall under "rumors", which aren't entirely unhelpful but don't rise to the bar of "source" let alone "trusted source".
[20:10] dorion: true
Day changed to 2021-01-14
[20:04] jfw: cruciform: http://www.krankendenken.com/2018/06/mein-kompendium-mp-wp/ is an entry point to the mp-wp maze with the benefit of linking to other guides (archive of the one from esthlos who since fell silent)
[20:08] cruciform: cheers; here's to killing the just-wants-to/jwz!
[20:09] cruciform will bbl
[20:12] jfw: billymg did some cleanup work on it though I haven't tested his latest for noted reasons
[20:12] sourcerer: 2020-12-03 06:09:15 (#jwrd) jfw: billymg: any reason you don't just link to your patches & seals in http://billymg.com/mp-wp-vtree/ and http://billymg.com/mp-wp-tests-vtree/ ? I did a wget -m to make sure I had everything without having to copy & paste into the terminal like a monkey - er, PHP coder, para no insultar los monos - then found I still didn't have everything
[20:16] jfw: The patches I'm comfortable with are mirrored at http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/v/mp-wp/ though this does not quite correspond to what I'm actually running, the main gaps being the implementation of serverside selection and my recent changes to quit dumping article text in the archive index views
[20:22] jfw: + theme customization which is unfortunately intimately tied to the php code
Day changed to 2021-01-15
[23:57] cruciform: jfw: thanks a lot for the above links
[23:57] cruciform: I've got a lot on my plate atm, but will get round to using 'em soon
Day changed to 2021-01-18
[01:20] jfw: cruciform: perhaps the best way to use the links is to get the general lay of the land - what new code is needed on hdd, what new commands are needed in head / notebook to work with it, what are the minimum known necessary steps & choices to make (because there's quite likely to be more)
[01:24] jfw: But in other news, I'm dealing with a hardware failure on my remote-training computer. Do you mind rescheduling to Thursday for this week? I can fall back on other options if necessary but would prefer if I can take more time to give repairs a chance.
[01:48] cruciform: jfw: thanks for the pointers; next step on my agenda is grokking V. No problem wrt rescheduling for Thursday
[04:18] jfw: cool, and it just so happens that the upcoming class is all about V.
[04:23] cruciform: I dare say it's needed: the introductory trilema piece is currently confuddling me
[19:49] dorion: hey whaack, how goes ? any progress with the work station fix-up ?
[19:51] cruciform: jfw, dorion: I'm looking to clone my SSD (Ubuntu) onto a larger drive - do you recommend a particular method? I see dd is an option, but don't wanna do anything stupid...
Day changed to 2021-01-19
[03:18] jfw: cruciform: dd would work in this case (copying to a larger device) but is overkill as it's for copying the full address space, at the block level, irrespective of what's actually in use.
[03:19] jfw: I would use "cp -a" ; the subtleties however are in getting set up for it.
[03:20] jfw: First you partition the new device as desired and create a filesystem for each partition - either using whatever GUI or using fdisk and mkfs.ext4 from the CLI as we covered in the lessons.
[03:21] jfw: Ideally you do this all from an environment where the source filesystem isn't in active use, e.g. a livecd or another machine with disks hooked up by sata cable, usb harness etc.
[03:23] jfw: Especially if it is in active use, you'll need to pay attention to things that might need to be excluded from the copy due to being temporary or kernel-provided pseudo-filesystems: dev, proc, and sys are the typical ones on linux but the best bet is to look at the "mount" output and ensure you know what each line means.
[03:26] jfw: probably the best way to thus "exclude" is to instead include the explicit list: bin boot etc home etc.
[03:29] jfw: On the destination side, you need the fresh filesystems to be mounted in the desired tree; which will require creating directories for the mountpoints; for instance, if using a separate / and /home, you might first mount /dev/sdb1 on /mnt/new/, then mkdir /mnt/new/home, then mount /dev/sdb2 on /mnt/new/home . (In this example the source filesystem might be /dev/sda1 on /mnt/old/, and the same
[03:29] jfw: applies if it has multiple partitions.)
[03:32] jfw: that is, the same point applies that all of the partitions need to be mounted and in the correct relative directory. (This isn't strictly required i.e. you could copy each filesystem separately but it's the proper & tidy way imho.)
[03:34] jfw: Finally, after the copy (add a -v flag to the cp and/or watch df in another terminal to see the progress) and a sanity check of the destination, you need a bootloader-specific procedure to make the new disk independently bootable.
[03:35] jfw: These days, it'll depend too on whether the machine is EFI or 'legacy BIOS', ugh.
[03:37] jfw: and I'm guessing / recalling that ubuntu uses GRUB 2 which is an absolute pain to configure - but perhaps no configuration is needed and just an application of current config. See if that at least gives you a start on what to look for.
[03:39] jfw: Make sure it's the *new* drive to which grub is being installed though; and in any case as surely goes without saying, don't trash the old drive until the new one is proven to boot freestanding.
[03:41] jfw: a 'sync' after the copy completes wouldn't hurt either, just in case you or the live environment or whatever "forgets" to properly unmount.
[03:42] jfw: Looking at it all, I can see how the 'dd' could be a lot easier. However, if you do go that way, need to make extra sure that you're using it properly because it will hose any disk it's pointed at without asking twice.
[03:45] jfw: I guess this can be your surprise sneak preview of the Gales Linux install that's covered in the Advanced module :)
[03:50] jfw: http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2021/jwrd-logs-for-Jan-2021/#1243 - heh. I'd say that one's more of a trilema style "complete, if brief" treatment of the heart of the matter rather than a technical manual and much less an "introduction".
[03:50] sourcerer: 2021-01-18 04:23:04 (#jwrd) cruciform: I dare say it's needed: the introductory trilema piece is currently confuddling me
[03:52] jfw: A couple points: 1. adding to the confusion is that "V" is used somewhat ambiguously, eg for specific implementations or for the approach as a whole
[03:55] jfw: 2. possibly further adding to the confusion is that the irreconcilable split between asciilifeform (who coined the ...letter and wrote the initial scripts first heralded as a major breakthrough) and MP (who did the heralding) runs right into the nature of V itself and I don't imagine the two would agree on much about it these days.
[03:58] jfw: 3. "being confused" or befuddled or whatever mixture is not an especially helpful "error message", whereas the problem it represents is yours alone, and does not create an obligation on anyone else to debug your unspecifically broken head. Which is to say - take more responsibility for figuring things out, for which coming up with specific questions can be a strong approach.
[04:00] jfw: Of course it also helps to have the right people around to ask; and I won't make any claim to being the best for that in re V, of those that were available; though it's quite possible I'm the best that's still available today.
[04:02] jfw: I mean, MP is still available in trilema comments, but not in any sort of hand-holding capacity.
[04:12] jfw: cruciform: say, how far did your #ossasepia log reading project get? there was no shortage of schooling on V in there, including of me
[04:14] jfw: for the latter, http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/a-bevy-of-fixes-for-v-in-perl/?b=I+thought&e=vision.#select and the linked log footnote.
[16:59] whaack: dorion: not bad. No progress on the work station setup, I'm in a different part of CR atm traveling so I'm not by my desktop.
Day changed to 2021-01-20
[19:15] cruciform: jfw: thanks for the thorough explanation!
[19:32] cruciform: not as far as the following link to V-schooling; thanks! http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2021/jwrd-logs-for-Jan-2021/#1269
[19:32] sourcerer: 2021-01-19 04:12:33 (#jwrd) jfw: cruciform: say, how far did your #ossasepia log reading project get? there was no shortage of schooling on V in there, including of me
Day changed to 2021-01-23
[05:02] jfw: cruciform, meant to followup here: you're quite welcome & let me know how that drive migration goes.
[05:06] jfw: The latest enviro-scam to come to my attention: "802.3az Energy Efficient Ethernet" ie "we saved you 1 watt by making your switches even less reliable than they were with the auto-negotiated speed stuff".
[05:08] jfw: Appears to have entirely polluted the basic unmanaged ethernet switch category including current editions of models not previously affected.
[05:16] jfw: sounding like the exact equivalent of the auto transmissions that delay downshifting because "it didn't seem like you still needed that power"; but I suppose that's exactly what the "why should I have to learn anything" automatic clientele wanted anyway.
[05:23] jfw: Possibly the PoE subcategory is exempted but those are way too costly and bulky if you don't need the capability. I'd know - had to leave one behind in Uruguay due to the baggage weight limit.
[05:30] jfw: at this rate I'd better start stockpiling light switches and doorknobs before they find a way to ruin those too.
Day changed to 2021-01-25
[16:15] cruciform: used dd and gparted from a liveUSB; everything seems to be working! I'll get around to doing it properly via cli on next round (tad pressed for time atm with moving etc.) -- http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2021/jwrd-logs-for-Jan-2021/#1275
[16:15] sourcerer: 2021-01-23 05:02:50 (#jwrd) jfw: cruciform, meant to followup here: you're quite welcome & let me know how that drive migration goes.
[23:05] cruciform: jfw, did you record the V-session; if so could you please upload it?
Day changed to 2021-01-26
[01:57] jfw: I did; on it.
[02:09] jfw: and done. it has to sit there for quite some time "converting" when the meeting closes so I seem prone to switching task and forgetting that pot on the stove. I'll get back to uploading same-day.
[02:09] cruciform: thanks! I've setup V on my ubuntu box, as per your instructions
[02:10] jfw: well done on the data migration; nothing wrong with starting simple and learning the more flexible / powerful / efficient ways in due time.
[02:10] cruciform: yea - I did have a gander at the cli commands that gparted was executing
[02:10] jfw: did you manage to get anything pressed yet?
[02:11] cruciform: nothing pressed, yet - I've imported the trb patches, but V doesn't seem to be able to find 'em
[02:12] jfw: did you get the seals and signer keys too?
[02:14] cruciform: aha - no (though I could've sworn I had!)
[02:15] cruciform: hrm - I've got the seals, but haven't manually imported the pubkeys into .wot
[02:16] cruciform: though, V isn't complaining about lack of keys; rather patches: "Error! Could not find vpatch "asciilifeform_add_verifyall_option.vpatch" in patches"
[02:16] jfw: right, v.pl's behavior as I noted is to pretty much silently ignore whatever's missing a sig or key so that's probably at least the first problem.
[02:17] cruciform: aha, I recall you saying this is one reason you don't like perl: silent failure is a thing, as apposed to, say, Python
[02:20] jfw: yep; note that python's not exactly the shining example though so it's more of an "even python manages to get this right"
[02:22] jfw: though I've more recently grappled with the argument that there's a legitimate place for such 'perlism', seen also in bash and awk: prototyping, where it's clearly understood that you're just figuring stuff out the first time and it's to be redone properly once feasibility and necessity is validated
[02:24] cruciform: wonder if it's marketed as such - Perl the language for redoing shit properly elsewhere
[02:24] jfw: in that view, prototyping and production-grade language features are at least somewhat at odds and python's failing (by deliberate design choice) is trying to be good at both
[02:26] jfw: oh, it is; 'practical extraction and reporting language', ~every feature is explained in terms of "yes we know it's ugly and imprecise but boy does it help you whip up a quick fix for XYZ"
[02:27] cruciform: aha, fair enough
[02:30] cruciform: having imported the pubkeys into .wot, I'm coming up with an error: on attempting the command: "v.pl a asciilifeform_add_verifyall_option.vpatch" - "opendir(.wot): No such file or directory at /usr/local/bin/v.pl line 609."
[02:30] cruciform: Am I supposed to be working from within the /usr/local/bin directory? I've got everything saved in ~/v
[02:31] jfw: /usr/local/bin is just the path to the script (v.pl) that perl is reporting; you'd need to work from ~/v
[02:32] jfw: I have to run - let's continue in class if there's still trouble.
[02:32] cruciform: cool; ttyl
Day changed to 2021-01-28
[16:54] cruciform_yrc: hello, world!
[18:01] jfw: cruciform_yrc: cool deal.
[18:02] dorion: hey cruciform_yrc.
[18:04] cruciform_yrc: hey, guys!
[18:04] cruciform_yrc: gonna try pressing mp-wp this evening
[18:09] jfw: good luck!
[18:11] jfw: for the log, we found that v.pl, as found in my starter kit, works on ubuntu provided one first does an "apt-get install gnupg1" and then edits the v.pl script to s/gpg/gpg1/ .
[01:46] jfw: cruciform: your crate is sealed up and ready to fly - but UPS was closed by the time I was ready today and will surely be on holiday still tomorrow. If you can give us an update on your timing constraints it would be appreciated, as we can look into faster options if there's cause.
[02:05] cruciform: jfw, I'll likely be in the UK until at least mid-Jan, so shouldn't be a problem
[02:06] cruciform: there's a decent chance we'll go into another full-lockdown, with all flights banned, too
[02:06] jfw: "likely"? heh
[02:06] cruciform: I'd snap off even-money, if offered
[02:07] jfw: I either lack the poker or the en_GB to follow you there
[02:07] cruciform: I've been drinking, and the error's on my part
[02:07] jfw: ah cheers
[02:07] cruciform: but ye, it had poker talk mixed in, too
[02:08] cruciform: I expect >50% chance UK locks down in Jan
[02:08] cruciform: I extended my lease til end of Jan, so we'll see
[02:09] jfw: is the idea that if it doesn't lock down then you'd be leaving sooner?
[02:09] cruciform: I'm currently the ONLY person not muzzled @ grocery store
[02:10] cruciform: I wanna see what happens in early Jan, before booking flights/accom and having to cancel everything
[02:10] jfw: they've even officially branded such now here as "being That Guy"
[02:10] cruciform: hehe, I tell girls that I've a medical exemption: too good-looking to wear a mask
[02:11] jfw: ok so as long as the crate goes out on the 2nd using the previously agreed service level it will be fine, is what I'm hearing
[02:11] cruciform: most annoying aspect of lockdowns is that girls are reluctant to go on dates
[02:12] cruciform: yes, that'll be fine
[02:12] jfw: alright, ty.
[02:12] jfw: so how's that medical line been working?
[02:18] jfw: from what I hear it's more "I'm not scared for myself, I just don't want to endanger others, it would be The Not Good"
[02:19] jfw: ohai trilema database connection error - it's not just me!
[02:19] sourcerer: 2020-12-08 18:38:29 (#jwrd) jfw: ACTION gets a bigger iptables hammer for these bots pounding on /xmlrpc.php - but congrats I guess for knocking over my mysqld for ~2 hours
[02:34] jfw: I shall be back later.
Day changed to 2021-01-04
[22:20] cruciform: while viruses evolve, hysteria doesn't: UK fully locked down again (3rd time's the charm?)
[22:21] cruciform: no problems anywhere except the Apple store, who REALLY wanted me to wear a mask http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2021/jwrd-logs-for-Jan-2021/#1181
[22:21] sourcerer: 2021-01-01 02:12:57 (#jwrd) jfw: so how's that medical line been working?
Day changed to 2021-01-05
[17:43] jfw: cruciform: not too surprising re Apple & not bad otherwise
[17:43] jfw: and a friendly reminder / checkin that we're back to class today.
[18:13] cruciform: jfw, apologies for tardiness - firing up Zoom
Day changed to 2021-01-07
[21:06] jfw: I gather cruciform's package made it into the beseiged island and without signs of meddling, cheers!
[21:09] jfw: cruciform, how did the outer corrugated box and tape hold up? last time I shipped internationally it was to myself in Panama, and the structural integrity of my boxes was almost entirely compromised. Thus I went to some lengths to do it better this time (though it was also a much lighter package).
[21:13] jfw: *besieged
Day changed to 2021-01-08
[22:31] jfw: In the logical next step after going forced-SSL, I've now observed archive.is requiring captcha.
Day changed to 2021-01-09
[01:13] cruciform: jfw, the box held up fine, as did the padding inside. Just waiting on my plug converters to arrive
[01:13] cruciform: also, the UPS delivery girl was cute!
[04:39] jfw: ah good, I made sure to tick the box for that option.
[04:40] jfw: Come to think of it though, I can't recall a time I saw a female working a parcel delivery route over here
[04:41] jfw: Driving busses, yes.
Day changed to 2021-01-11
[00:28] cruciform: jfw, dorion: long story, but: I've managed to lose both the laptops you guys sent me (still got the router and assorted small cables)... plz to sell me more?
[00:29] cruciform: it'll take me a few days to get a transaction primed, so perhaps you could take it off what I've already paid for modules 2+3, so as to get the ball rolling faster?
[00:30] cruciform: ie. I'll have paid for module 2 still, but module 3 is not to be delivered til I pay for the replacement laptops
[00:30] cruciform: (by "a few days" might be a week or so
[01:33] jfw: o_O any bits of that long (or more likely: short but embarassing) story you'd be willing to share?
[01:35] jfw: I do hope you realize that if you misplace a pile of cash, no amount of technical or mathematical knowledge is going to help bring it back
[01:43] jfw: anyways I'm happy to cook up more machines as long as there's demand, but it may take a couple weeks (as before)
[01:47] jfw: I'll get started on the raw material orders tomorrow and leave it to dorion to work out payment.
[01:48] cruciform: jfw, thanks a lot; I'll save the story for another day (since this one's been so long already!)
[01:48] cruciform: may be sporadically online over next few days; shall be checking the log
[01:49] jfw: alright, have fun with whatever the adventures may be.
[01:50] cruciform: cheers! :)
[21:04] jfw: cruciform: given that we have a log now, it'd be better if you just stay disconnected while your link is unstable except when actually talking
[21:04] cruciform: jfw: gotcha
Day changed to 2021-01-12
[16:22] jfw: cruciform, how's it been with the assigned cryptography reading?
[16:24] jfw: or more specifically, will you be ready to talk about it?
[16:37] cruciform: jfw: I'm terribly sorry for the late notice; I've not got round to it - can we reschedule for this Thursday at 18:00 UTC?
[16:37] cruciform: to say it's been a long week is something of an understatement
[16:38] jfw: Yes we can; good luck.
[16:41] jfw: As a note to future readers though, this degree of (repeat) flexibility is offered because my teaching & meetings schedule is still relatively light, and is not guaranteed to continue.
[16:54] cruciform: one hopes the continued derping of future (and current!!) students is likewise not guaranteed!
[16:57] jfw: derping generally continues as long as it can afford to, or so I gather.
[17:15] cruciform: I dare say you're right; here's to stemming the derpitutude BEFORE it becomes a matter of cannot-afford-to!
[17:24] jfw: perhaps more accurately, as long as it perceives it can afford to.
[17:37] cruciform: yes - and I belive I'm finally being disabused of that fanciful notion
Day changed to 2021-01-13
[17:23] jfw: For anyone wanting to move btc, it's looking like a paytxfee=.0003 or even .0004 would be in order for present conditions. I don't presently have any other trusted source (*cough* block explorer) to suggest for finding this information.
[17:45] dorion: jfw, this source requires js, but I find it useful : https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin/ ; and indeed, in last 24h they report avg tx fee : 0.00049 BTC (0.0000013 BTC/byte) and median tx fee : 0.00025 BTC.
[20:08] jfw: to me those sites fall under "rumors", which aren't entirely unhelpful but don't rise to the bar of "source" let alone "trusted source".
[20:10] dorion: true
Day changed to 2021-01-14
[20:04] jfw: cruciform: http://www.krankendenken.com/2018/06/mein-kompendium-mp-wp/ is an entry point to the mp-wp maze with the benefit of linking to other guides (archive of the one from esthlos who since fell silent)
[20:08] cruciform: cheers; here's to killing the just-wants-to/jwz!
[20:09] cruciform will bbl
[20:12] jfw: billymg did some cleanup work on it though I haven't tested his latest for noted reasons
[20:12] sourcerer: 2020-12-03 06:09:15 (#jwrd) jfw: billymg: any reason you don't just link to your patches & seals in http://billymg.com/mp-wp-vtree/ and http://billymg.com/mp-wp-tests-vtree/ ? I did a wget -m to make sure I had everything without having to copy & paste into the terminal like a monkey - er, PHP coder, para no insultar los monos - then found I still didn't have everything
[20:16] jfw: The patches I'm comfortable with are mirrored at http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/v/mp-wp/ though this does not quite correspond to what I'm actually running, the main gaps being the implementation of serverside selection and my recent changes to quit dumping article text in the archive index views
[20:22] jfw: + theme customization which is unfortunately intimately tied to the php code
Day changed to 2021-01-15
[23:57] cruciform: jfw: thanks a lot for the above links
[23:57] cruciform: I've got a lot on my plate atm, but will get round to using 'em soon
Day changed to 2021-01-18
[01:20] jfw: cruciform: perhaps the best way to use the links is to get the general lay of the land - what new code is needed on hdd, what new commands are needed in head / notebook to work with it, what are the minimum known necessary steps & choices to make (because there's quite likely to be more)
[01:24] jfw: But in other news, I'm dealing with a hardware failure on my remote-training computer. Do you mind rescheduling to Thursday for this week? I can fall back on other options if necessary but would prefer if I can take more time to give repairs a chance.
[01:48] cruciform: jfw: thanks for the pointers; next step on my agenda is grokking V. No problem wrt rescheduling for Thursday
[04:18] jfw: cool, and it just so happens that the upcoming class is all about V.
[04:23] cruciform: I dare say it's needed: the introductory trilema piece is currently confuddling me
[19:49] dorion: hey whaack, how goes ? any progress with the work station fix-up ?
[19:51] cruciform: jfw, dorion: I'm looking to clone my SSD (Ubuntu) onto a larger drive - do you recommend a particular method? I see dd is an option, but don't wanna do anything stupid...
Day changed to 2021-01-19
[03:18] jfw: cruciform: dd would work in this case (copying to a larger device) but is overkill as it's for copying the full address space, at the block level, irrespective of what's actually in use.
[03:19] jfw: I would use "cp -a" ; the subtleties however are in getting set up for it.
[03:20] jfw: First you partition the new device as desired and create a filesystem for each partition - either using whatever GUI or using fdisk and mkfs.ext4 from the CLI as we covered in the lessons.
[03:21] jfw: Ideally you do this all from an environment where the source filesystem isn't in active use, e.g. a livecd or another machine with disks hooked up by sata cable, usb harness etc.
[03:23] jfw: Especially if it is in active use, you'll need to pay attention to things that might need to be excluded from the copy due to being temporary or kernel-provided pseudo-filesystems: dev, proc, and sys are the typical ones on linux but the best bet is to look at the "mount" output and ensure you know what each line means.
[03:26] jfw: probably the best way to thus "exclude" is to instead include the explicit list: bin boot etc home etc.
[03:29] jfw: On the destination side, you need the fresh filesystems to be mounted in the desired tree; which will require creating directories for the mountpoints; for instance, if using a separate / and /home, you might first mount /dev/sdb1 on /mnt/new/, then mkdir /mnt/new/home, then mount /dev/sdb2 on /mnt/new/home . (In this example the source filesystem might be /dev/sda1 on /mnt/old/, and the same
[03:29] jfw: applies if it has multiple partitions.)
[03:32] jfw: that is, the same point applies that all of the partitions need to be mounted and in the correct relative directory. (This isn't strictly required i.e. you could copy each filesystem separately but it's the proper & tidy way imho.)
[03:34] jfw: Finally, after the copy (add a -v flag to the cp and/or watch df in another terminal to see the progress) and a sanity check of the destination, you need a bootloader-specific procedure to make the new disk independently bootable.
[03:35] jfw: These days, it'll depend too on whether the machine is EFI or 'legacy BIOS', ugh.
[03:37] jfw: and I'm guessing / recalling that ubuntu uses GRUB 2 which is an absolute pain to configure - but perhaps no configuration is needed and just an application of current config. See if that at least gives you a start on what to look for.
[03:39] jfw: Make sure it's the *new* drive to which grub is being installed though; and in any case as surely goes without saying, don't trash the old drive until the new one is proven to boot freestanding.
[03:41] jfw: a 'sync' after the copy completes wouldn't hurt either, just in case you or the live environment or whatever "forgets" to properly unmount.
[03:42] jfw: Looking at it all, I can see how the 'dd' could be a lot easier. However, if you do go that way, need to make extra sure that you're using it properly because it will hose any disk it's pointed at without asking twice.
[03:45] jfw: I guess this can be your surprise sneak preview of the Gales Linux install that's covered in the Advanced module :)
[03:50] jfw: http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2021/jwrd-logs-for-Jan-2021/#1243 - heh. I'd say that one's more of a trilema style "complete, if brief" treatment of the heart of the matter rather than a technical manual and much less an "introduction".
[03:50] sourcerer: 2021-01-18 04:23:04 (#jwrd) cruciform: I dare say it's needed: the introductory trilema piece is currently confuddling me
[03:52] jfw: A couple points: 1. adding to the confusion is that "V" is used somewhat ambiguously, eg for specific implementations or for the approach as a whole
[03:55] jfw: 2. possibly further adding to the confusion is that the irreconcilable split between asciilifeform (who coined the ...letter and wrote the initial scripts first heralded as a major breakthrough) and MP (who did the heralding) runs right into the nature of V itself and I don't imagine the two would agree on much about it these days.
[03:58] jfw: 3. "being confused" or befuddled or whatever mixture is not an especially helpful "error message", whereas the problem it represents is yours alone, and does not create an obligation on anyone else to debug your unspecifically broken head. Which is to say - take more responsibility for figuring things out, for which coming up with specific questions can be a strong approach.
[04:00] jfw: Of course it also helps to have the right people around to ask; and I won't make any claim to being the best for that in re V, of those that were available; though it's quite possible I'm the best that's still available today.
[04:02] jfw: I mean, MP is still available in trilema comments, but not in any sort of hand-holding capacity.
[04:12] jfw: cruciform: say, how far did your #ossasepia log reading project get? there was no shortage of schooling on V in there, including of me
[04:14] jfw: for the latter, http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/a-bevy-of-fixes-for-v-in-perl/?b=I+thought&e=vision.#select and the linked log footnote.
[16:59] whaack: dorion: not bad. No progress on the work station setup, I'm in a different part of CR atm traveling so I'm not by my desktop.
Day changed to 2021-01-20
[19:15] cruciform: jfw: thanks for the thorough explanation!
[19:32] cruciform: not as far as the following link to V-schooling; thanks! http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2021/jwrd-logs-for-Jan-2021/#1269
[19:32] sourcerer: 2021-01-19 04:12:33 (#jwrd) jfw: cruciform: say, how far did your #ossasepia log reading project get? there was no shortage of schooling on V in there, including of me
Day changed to 2021-01-23
[05:02] jfw: cruciform, meant to followup here: you're quite welcome & let me know how that drive migration goes.
[05:06] jfw: The latest enviro-scam to come to my attention: "802.3az Energy Efficient Ethernet" ie "we saved you 1 watt by making your switches even less reliable than they were with the auto-negotiated speed stuff".
[05:08] jfw: Appears to have entirely polluted the basic unmanaged ethernet switch category including current editions of models not previously affected.
[05:16] jfw: sounding like the exact equivalent of the auto transmissions that delay downshifting because "it didn't seem like you still needed that power"; but I suppose that's exactly what the "why should I have to learn anything" automatic clientele wanted anyway.
[05:23] jfw: Possibly the PoE subcategory is exempted but those are way too costly and bulky if you don't need the capability. I'd know - had to leave one behind in Uruguay due to the baggage weight limit.
[05:30] jfw: at this rate I'd better start stockpiling light switches and doorknobs before they find a way to ruin those too.
Day changed to 2021-01-25
[16:15] cruciform: used dd and gparted from a liveUSB; everything seems to be working! I'll get around to doing it properly via cli on next round (tad pressed for time atm with moving etc.) -- http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2021/jwrd-logs-for-Jan-2021/#1275
[16:15] sourcerer: 2021-01-23 05:02:50 (#jwrd) jfw: cruciform, meant to followup here: you're quite welcome & let me know how that drive migration goes.
[23:05] cruciform: jfw, did you record the V-session; if so could you please upload it?
Day changed to 2021-01-26
[01:57] jfw: I did; on it.
[02:09] jfw: and done. it has to sit there for quite some time "converting" when the meeting closes so I seem prone to switching task and forgetting that pot on the stove. I'll get back to uploading same-day.
[02:09] cruciform: thanks! I've setup V on my ubuntu box, as per your instructions
[02:10] jfw: well done on the data migration; nothing wrong with starting simple and learning the more flexible / powerful / efficient ways in due time.
[02:10] cruciform: yea - I did have a gander at the cli commands that gparted was executing
[02:10] jfw: did you manage to get anything pressed yet?
[02:11] cruciform: nothing pressed, yet - I've imported the trb patches, but V doesn't seem to be able to find 'em
[02:12] jfw: did you get the seals and signer keys too?
[02:14] cruciform: aha - no (though I could've sworn I had!)
[02:15] cruciform: hrm - I've got the seals, but haven't manually imported the pubkeys into .wot
[02:16] cruciform: though, V isn't complaining about lack of keys; rather patches: "Error! Could not find vpatch "asciilifeform_add_verifyall_option.vpatch" in patches"
[02:16] jfw: right, v.pl's behavior as I noted is to pretty much silently ignore whatever's missing a sig or key so that's probably at least the first problem.
[02:17] cruciform: aha, I recall you saying this is one reason you don't like perl: silent failure is a thing, as apposed to, say, Python
[02:20] jfw: yep; note that python's not exactly the shining example though so it's more of an "even python manages to get this right"
[02:22] jfw: though I've more recently grappled with the argument that there's a legitimate place for such 'perlism', seen also in bash and awk: prototyping, where it's clearly understood that you're just figuring stuff out the first time and it's to be redone properly once feasibility and necessity is validated
[02:24] cruciform: wonder if it's marketed as such - Perl the language for redoing shit properly elsewhere
[02:24] jfw: in that view, prototyping and production-grade language features are at least somewhat at odds and python's failing (by deliberate design choice) is trying to be good at both
[02:26] jfw: oh, it is; 'practical extraction and reporting language', ~every feature is explained in terms of "yes we know it's ugly and imprecise but boy does it help you whip up a quick fix for XYZ"
[02:27] cruciform: aha, fair enough
[02:30] cruciform: having imported the pubkeys into .wot, I'm coming up with an error: on attempting the command: "v.pl a asciilifeform_add_verifyall_option.vpatch" - "opendir(.wot): No such file or directory at /usr/local/bin/v.pl line 609."
[02:30] cruciform: Am I supposed to be working from within the /usr/local/bin directory? I've got everything saved in ~/v
[02:31] jfw: /usr/local/bin is just the path to the script (v.pl) that perl is reporting; you'd need to work from ~/v
[02:32] jfw: I have to run - let's continue in class if there's still trouble.
[02:32] cruciform: cool; ttyl
Day changed to 2021-01-28
[16:54] cruciform_yrc: hello, world!
[18:01] jfw: cruciform_yrc: cool deal.
[18:02] dorion: hey cruciform_yrc.
[18:04] cruciform_yrc: hey, guys!
[18:04] cruciform_yrc: gonna try pressing mp-wp this evening
[18:09] jfw: good luck!
[18:11] jfw: for the log, we found that v.pl, as found in my starter kit, works on ubuntu provided one first does an "apt-get install gnupg1" and then edits the v.pl script to s/gpg/gpg1/ .